LiveLife
Member
Well ... some of us have hard time seeing that far, let alone hit that far ...
What size of groups should I look for?
- Thread starter TH3180
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I agree. As I posted earlier, shooting at long distance makes you a better shooter. It makes you focus much more. Back when I was a youth with superb vision I used to shoot gallon paint cans at 50 to 100 yards in the gravel pit with a Remington Rand to work on my shooting. I could plug them pretty easily. It really helped when shooting at closer ranges.
Even though the target at 100 yards is not clear these days, I can still shoot pretty well at that range. I miss the days when I could spot a marble at 100 yards.
I reckon that all I can do then is get my LGS to blow out the back wall of their range and add another 25 feet to their building? - LOL
Please note that while there are those fortunate to live in the wilderness where there are outdoor ranges, many of us poor soul 'city folk' shoot indoors and many a range's back wall is 50 feet or there abouts.
The need for distance proficiency I reckon also depends on the individual shooter's needs. As I mentioned earlier I practice for the simple fun of plinking and to stay self-defense competent at realistic SD scenario distances (well under 25 feet). Good luck convincing a jury that the mope you shot 75+ feet away was an 'immediate danger' to your life.
Will being able to produce tightish groups at 75 feet naturally make you uber-proficient at 15? Of course it will, no debate there. Is that level of proficiency 'necessary or expected' for the average shooter, of course not.
Please note that while there are those fortunate to live in the wilderness where there are outdoor ranges, many of us poor soul 'city folk' shoot indoors and many a range's back wall is 50 feet or there abouts.
The need for distance proficiency I reckon also depends on the individual shooter's needs. As I mentioned earlier I practice for the simple fun of plinking and to stay self-defense competent at realistic SD scenario distances (well under 25 feet). Good luck convincing a jury that the mope you shot 75+ feet away was an 'immediate danger' to your life.
Will being able to produce tightish groups at 75 feet naturally make you uber-proficient at 15? Of course it will, no debate there. Is that level of proficiency 'necessary or expected' for the average shooter, of course not.
243winxb
Member
Like i said >
With a magazine capacity of 17 cartridges, who needs a group? Just fill the air with lead and run like hell. For you "old guys", just put a shotgun in the shoulder holster.
For you "old guys", just put a shotgun in the shoulder holster.
orionengnr
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Don't know if this will help, and I'm certainly not the best shot on this thread so far...but I found a good suggestion on this board a year or two ago, and have been using it ever since.
The theory is "aim small, miss small".
The way I put this into action is by using 3 x 5 index cards as targets, with a 1" orange dot in the center.
I have a whole bunch of them, and use them for all calibers. I start out with a .22LR, usually put 20 rounds per card, and run through 100 rounds (5 cards) before shifting to a centerfire pistol/revolver.
I still use the 3 x 5 card with the 1" dot. Nearly all my shooting is at 25 feet.
If I concentrate, I can put five rounds into one inch or less. I generally shoot better with centerfire rounds than I do with .22LR...probably because I concentrate better with centerfire rounds.
The theory is "aim small, miss small".
The way I put this into action is by using 3 x 5 index cards as targets, with a 1" orange dot in the center.
I have a whole bunch of them, and use them for all calibers. I start out with a .22LR, usually put 20 rounds per card, and run through 100 rounds (5 cards) before shifting to a centerfire pistol/revolver.
I still use the 3 x 5 card with the 1" dot. Nearly all my shooting is at 25 feet.
If I concentrate, I can put five rounds into one inch or less. I generally shoot better with centerfire rounds than I do with .22LR...probably because I concentrate better with centerfire rounds.
1SOW
Member
orionengnr: I agree with this principle.
Given a gun that shoots reasonable close to point of aim and someone who shoots fairly regularly:
If I set up a 9" pie plate at 7yds and ask you to hit it--you'll aim at a 9" pie plate.
If I set up a bright red 12ga shotgun hull on the 25 yd berm, you'll aim at the hull.
I honestly have done this fun test with several people, and the best part is, most will come as close to the shotgun hull as they do to the center of the plate. Not necessarily 'every' shot, but most shots will. What will surprise some, is that they may 'bounce' the hull at least once.
Given a gun that shoots reasonable close to point of aim and someone who shoots fairly regularly:
If I set up a 9" pie plate at 7yds and ask you to hit it--you'll aim at a 9" pie plate.
If I set up a bright red 12ga shotgun hull on the 25 yd berm, you'll aim at the hull.
I honestly have done this fun test with several people, and the best part is, most will come as close to the shotgun hull as they do to the center of the plate. Not necessarily 'every' shot, but most shots will. What will surprise some, is that they may 'bounce' the hull at least once.
Intresting thought, I think I will try that the next I go to the range. Thanks for the tip.
LiveLife
Member
Yes, done it often with shotgun hulls/golf balls. This is true of shorter distance target as well, as what you are doing is "walking" your shots based on your last POA/POI. But this is not accuracy verification of test load development that requires the exact same POA for each shot fired.
What I got as the intent of the OP was test load development and consistency verification of expected shot group sizes.
When I work up my loads, I try to shoot them all on the same range trip, from starting charge to high/max loads to duplicate the same temperature, pistol/barrel condition and shooter's condition (me and approximate amount of coffee in the systemTH3180 said:
) for more consistent shot group comparison. I select the same POA for every shot fired for the same shot group.When I review my shot groups of each charge shot at various distances, I usually get accuracy verification with the 7 yard groups. Comparing 10 yard and 15 yard shot groups usually reveal where the more accurate charges were. If you look at the range test of 180 gr test loads below, although 4.1 gr charge did produce a smaller 1" shot group at 10 yards and 4.4 gr charge produced a larger 2" shot group, ultimately 15 yard shot groups determined that 4.4 gr charge was the most accurate charge load for that range test.
Some may say, but you got a smaller shot group of 1" at 10 yards with the 4.1 gr load. I would say, you are right. So, I would repeat my range test using 4.1 and 4.4 gr at the same 10 yard distance on the follow up range test to verify whether this was the charge load or the shooter.
I usually repeat my range tests until I get duplicate results at least twice before I consider my findings consistent and repeatable. I also usually bring a known reference load that's been verified to be accurate for comparison as well.
When I tested my initial 200 gr 45ACP 4.0 gr charge test load of Promo and got inconsistent shot groups, I went back to the range with my reference 200 gr 45ACP 5.0 gr W231/HP38 loads and the reference loads produced expected accurate shot groups. This made me realize that my inconsistent shot groups were due to the load and not the pistol.
I hope this helped.
Nevmavrick
Member
If you're shooting so close that you get GSR on the target, you are testing technique, not load data. You have to be far enough away that the effect is evident. The proscribed range with an iron-sighted handgun is 25yd because it difficult to see past that. Remember, the TARGET blurs, not the sights. The distance between the sights is short...that's why the distance for iron-sighted rifles is 50yd.
I know, high-power is fired with iron sights, and when you test those guns, you are testing the ammo with other effects, such as grip, and wind.
If you are working with a handgun at 7yd, 10yd or 15yds, you have to make up your mind whether you are testing target aquisition or just "making noise," which can be fun, too. TA practise is best used with several targets at different distances and you try to shoot as rapidly as you can, AND HIT ALL THE TARGETS!
Many are the times that I've illustrated to another shooter, who was trying to hit a target as quick as possible with a full magazine of ammo. They usually only hit 3-4 times out of 15-18. I tell them, "Slow down." They tell me "No," that they are practicing for speed.
I bring out a revolver and tell them I can put more ammo downrange than they can with their auto. They will, of course, call my bet... We line up, and at the command, I throw a full box of ammo at the target. They'll say "What good is THAT?" I tell them, "What's the difference, you're not hitting anything, anyway."
If you, as an experienced shooter, tell a beginner that they're doing well when they get small groups with powder-burns on the paper, you're doing them a disservice, because they won't stive to get better.
If you are just out there to have fun, and "make noise," admit it and do it. It is fun, but don't try to fool yourself into thinking you can shoot well.
Have fun,
Gene
I know, high-power is fired with iron sights, and when you test those guns, you are testing the ammo with other effects, such as grip, and wind.
If you are working with a handgun at 7yd, 10yd or 15yds, you have to make up your mind whether you are testing target aquisition or just "making noise," which can be fun, too. TA practise is best used with several targets at different distances and you try to shoot as rapidly as you can, AND HIT ALL THE TARGETS!
Many are the times that I've illustrated to another shooter, who was trying to hit a target as quick as possible with a full magazine of ammo. They usually only hit 3-4 times out of 15-18. I tell them, "Slow down." They tell me "No," that they are practicing for speed.
I bring out a revolver and tell them I can put more ammo downrange than they can with their auto. They will, of course, call my bet... We line up, and at the command, I throw a full box of ammo at the target. They'll say "What good is THAT?" I tell them, "What's the difference, you're not hitting anything, anyway."
If you, as an experienced shooter, tell a beginner that they're doing well when they get small groups with powder-burns on the paper, you're doing them a disservice, because they won't stive to get better.
If you are just out there to have fun, and "make noise," admit it and do it. It is fun, but don't try to fool yourself into thinking you can shoot well.
Have fun,
Gene
I always tell them they are doing well for a beginner, and that they will get even better with practice, unless of course, they are just horrible, then I remain quite, or try to find something else to be positive about.
I save the "brutally honest" opinions for folks I know well and who can take it, or those who just beg for it.
I save the "brutally honest" opinions for folks I know well and who can take it, or those who just beg for it.
Nevmavrick
Member
Of course, you're right, Walkalong. I was actually thinking more along the lines of the beginner thinking to themselves, and a few shooters trying to be PC...not tell the newbie what's up, so they can improve.
There are few things I enjoy more than helping someone then them turning around and beating my tail, lol. That's actually not very hard to do.
Have fun,
Gene
There are few things I enjoy more than helping someone then them turning around and beating my tail, lol. That's actually not very hard to do.
Have fun,
Gene
Yes, for those really wanting to improve and willing to put in the work/practice, and for those who need to find a competitive load, they definitely need to hear the truth so they can get better.
It's an on the spot judgment call what is needed/warranted for any given situation.
It's an on the spot judgment call what is needed/warranted for any given situation.
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