What to do when you see a "No Guns" Sign

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Is the business bigoted against gun owners? How do you know? The sign? Not necessarily. Most business owners and managers are sheeple like everybody else. They are not informed on the issue and haven't given five seconds worth of thought to the Second Amendment or RKBA. All they know about guns is the propaganda they are spoon-fed by the mass media. They are probably either supplied their "no guns" signs by their corporate masters or they were looking around the office supply and picked them up along with the "no soliciting" and "no food and drinks" signs. And put the "no guns" signs up with just as much thought as the others.

All I want to do right now is get a pair of shoes or something. Now is not the time to educate the store owner on RKBA.

Actually, this is precisely the situation where you SHOULD say something.

"Hey, Bob... I've been buying shoes here for the past 20 years. Why don't you want me as a customer?"

That -will- get some thought.

You are describing someone who is essentially sitting on the fence on the issue, and they've put up the sign because they think that it makes their business safer. They think they've done a good thing. And after several customers notice it, and talk to the management, they will have a different impression.

This has worked successfully in some areas. It's worked fairly well in some places in Missouri. And I remember a few years back when TFL members all took it upon themselves to e-mail Applebee's management...Or maybe it was THR, but I don't think we could galvanize enough of a response these days.

It's like you guys just don't care. Maybe you think we've "won" or something...
 
Jokes aside:

I think this is the most important part of what bogie has said:
And I tell them why.

It's not enough to complain "Well, I just won't do business there anymore." You need to tell the management why you're not doing business there, directly. This is what makes activism work, and work well: As they say, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Great thread, bogie
 
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In Oklahoma those signs dont mean jack. The only thing they can do is ask you to leave at which point you have to but there are no legal ramifications.
 
You know, maybe we should encourage folks to put up MORE of those signs, since they don't seem to have any effect on most of you, and soccer mommies seem to like them. That way, in 10 years or so, when the next generation or so gets old enough to vote, they can make damn sure that nobody is allowed to even own one of those dangerous guns.
 
Hyperbole
Hy*per"bo*le\, n. [L., fr. Gr?, prop., an overshooting, excess, fr. Gr. ? to throw over or beyond; "ype`r over + ? to throw. See Hyper-, Parable, and cf. Hyperbola.] (Rhet.) A figure of speech in which the expression is an evident exaggeration of the meaning intended to be conveyed, or by which things are represented as much greater or less, better or worse, than they really are; a statement exaggerated fancifully, through excitement, or for effect.
 
One store puts one up. It doesn't come down. Another store puts one up. Then another.

And a generation of children are raised in that area to know, with constant reinforcement, that guns are bad.

How is that hype?
 
If you ever are in Arkansas

If you are ever in Arkansas please come by my business. If you like sweets message me and I'll tell you were I work. When I see someone who is carrying a gun responsibly I usually offer them some stuff for free. If you have a CCW in my store you aren't just protecting yourself, but me, my employees, and the store.

I don't have my CCW yet, or a gun that I would CCW, but I'm learning to shoot with my .22LR and once I get my CCW gun I'll be wearing it. It's the only thing for a responsible manager to do.
 
Well...since this is Texas and a "no guns" sign is not a "legal tool"...I pretend like it doesnt exist and go about my business as a licensed CHL holder in my state. If its a legal sign, I do my best to NOT do business there and of course at the very least, return to the car to leave behind my gun.
 
Telling people they are clueless because they don't agree with you is not very high road.

Agreed. Bogie- just because we don't think that your plan is worthwhile or effective doesn't mean we don't "get it." Frankly, I think it's ridiculous to imagine that CCWers have the clout to waive receipts and change business owner's opinions. I get it. I just think it's ineffective and unnecessary. I know a few business owners who post signs like that to prevent them from being sued in case of a robbery gone bad (well, really just to say that they tried to keep the guns off their property, so that a lawsuit will go their way...), so they wouldn't give a hoot about losing one or two customers if it keeps them in business. You've completely neglected to think through the store owners motivations for having the sign; not everyone who puts up one of those signs is anti-gun...

Do you have any actual evidence that a non-binding sign will cause the destruction of gun ownership? You say that it'll just somehow spontaneously spread from store to store (please explain HOW this will happen), then it will infect the next generation through "reinforcement" (exactly how?? Any proof that this trend exists or can exist? The whole notion of reinforcement seems impossible, as there is no positive or negative reinforcing stimulus involved. Jumping from guns=prohibited to guns=bad is a large theoretical movement, not supported by any psychological evidence of which I am aware).
 
So far Texas is leading the pack... Or trailing it, depending on how you look at it...

Do y'all have ANYONE with a clue in that state?

Bogie seems to have a case of everybody is wrong except for me.

Complaining to the owner about every stupid sign is like chasing someone down and confronting them about a stupid Hillery '08 bumper sticker. If you have the time and energy good for you. Personally I think it's a stupid waste of time.
 
So, you guys don't feel insulted by those signs?

Every infringement adds up.

And it it is very true that when one business sees another doing something, they will copy. If they think that putting up the signs gets/keeps business, and gun owners don't tell them anything, they'll enthusiastically do it. And they are NOT psychic.

Grass-roots efforts can be VERY effective. And call-in/e-mail campaigns with larger business have worked very well in the past. Individuals have also had intelligent chats with managers and the signs have come down. Sometimes it just takes one effort. I've done it a couple of times. It's easy.

"Why don't you want me as a customer?"

Of course, lately, on this forum, if you suggest that a bunch of folks get together an e-mail the corporate leadership of S-Mart about how one or two of their stores have posted "no guns" signs, you're almost guaranteeing that someone will post "it isn't very high road to send e-mails to the management" and "it's their property rights" and somesuch. Which basically guarantees that several other folks will get on the dang thread and agree. What side of the issue are some folks on?

About the only intelligent thing some of you guys have managed is keeping your booger flicker off your boomstick's trigger as you smirk your way past the signage so that you can support, with your hard-earned money, the same business which insults you. You think you're getting away with something? Is that it?

Say these merchants play copycat with each other - If Joe's BBQ has a gunbusters sign on their door, then Frank's Barbershop is gonna think that they need one. Before you know it, half your town is "being safe."

And then one of your state reps sneaks something into some last-minute knee jerk crime bill, making it a five-year felony to take a gun past ANY "no guns" sign. You don't think that can't happen? This is the United States - screwed up legislation happens all the time. Will you be smirking then? Every time you carry past one of those "useless" signs, you'll be chancing five years as Bubba's cellmate, and permanent loss of all your rights as a citizen.

You can be active today, or you can play catch-up down the road.

And it is ALL about public perception. When 10 year old kids see those "no guns" signs, it is reinforced in them that "gun are not something we want around here." And now someone will say that his kids know what the signs really mean - fine. Maybe not your kids, but then you ain't the daddy of the rest of the world's brats.

In eight years, those kids will be old enough to vote. And they will know, because they've been shown every day as they've walked in the supermarket, the hardware store, the local gas station, whatever, that guns = we don't want them around here.

Those signs say "We don't want your type." And you're letting them do it.

You are letting someone else erode your rights. WITHOUT ACTING TO SLOW IT OR PREVENT IT.

Sad.

And stupid.

Foolish.

Idiotic.

Maybe you're smart, but your behavior just doesn't cut it. And doesn't prove it.

The managers and store owners are not psychic. And most of them are not malevolent "anti-gun" folks either. They just think that they are being safe. And it takes a couple of minutes of polite chat to maybe convince them otherwise.

Then again, maybe that's too hard for some folks to handle. You'd rather smirk, and sneak in, and support the people who are insulting you, and later, go home and congratulate yourself on getting away with something.

Sigh.

It's not that hard. It requires a small amount of effort. Tell the owners/management why you are offended by their signs, and why you cannot shop there. Sometimes the sign comes down. Not every time. Can't win every skirmish.

But when you don't do anything, you are guaranteeing a loss.

Which makes you a loser. An apathetic loser.

Next time you mentally smirk, and walk past one of those insulting signs, to spend your money to support the same business that insults you, maybe you'll think about this. Maybe you'll go find the manager. Maybe you'll turn around, and shop at a store that wants your business. Those are grass-roots steps in winning.

Or maybe you'll just continue to be a loser.
 
I'm still waiting for a reason to believe that a sign will make kids become anti-gun. No psychological studies of which I am aware will ever make that claim.

No smoking signs don't appear to be the reason that young adults don't smoke as much as they used to.

Perhaps you should focus on why store owners feel compelled to put up these signs (read: our overly litigious culture, fear of lawsuits).

Finally, I really don't appreciate being called a "loser" and "idiotic." Please respect my opinion enough to be civil.
 
Are you a loser? Are you forfeiting without even trying to do anything? Because if you are, you sure ain't a winner.

This isn't your university debate society. I'm not aware of any psychological studies about kids becoming anti-gun, and I'm not going to conduct one, or go spend hours searching for one.

However, virtually any parent, or more mature adult, will realize that when children see something, it makes an impression. They see something a lot, it makes more of an impression. If Jen and I were to allow the nine-year-old-bundle-of-caffeinated-energy to watch MTV daily, he'd be quite likely to start wearing a hat sideways, with his pants down around his knees. Why? Because "that's what everyone is doing." Why? Because that is the impression he would have received from repeated images in the media.

You are permitting anti-gun "education" to happen. In fact, if you spend money in the places that post the signs, you are ENCOURAGING it.

And if you are encouraging something on one hand, while on the other you are saying that you don't want it to happen, that, my friend, is idiotic.

I'm not calling you an idiot. This is pretty much the same as me yelling "Hey, idiot!" in a crowd, and you're the guy who turned around.

Through inaction, gun owners who spend money in these establishments are causing their own downfall. And it seems that some folks feel mighty proud about it.

Sigh...
 
Are you a loser? Are you forfeiting without even trying to do anything? Because if you are, you sure ain't a winner.
Regardless of how I choose to pick my battles, I will do my best to be civil and respectful on this forum, whose rules I did not write and thus should obey to the best of my ability. That's all I request.

This isn't your university debate society. I'm not aware of any psychological studies about kids becoming anti-gun, and I'm not going to conduct one, or go spend hours searching for one.
In that case, please do not use terms like "reinforcement" without knowing what they mean, or make claims that cannot be verified. That kind of emotional folk-psych only holds us back.

However, virtually any parent, or more mature adult, will realize that when children see something, it makes an impression. They see something a lot, it makes more of an impression. If Jen and I were to allow the nine-year-old-bundle-of-caffeinated-energy to watch MTV daily, he'd be quite likely to start wearing a hat sideways, with his pants down around his knees. Why? Because "that's what everyone is doing." Why? Because that is the impression he would have received from repeated images to the media.
I'm very aware of peer, media, and other outside influences on child development. I think that you misunderstand children's motivations towards emulating these TV influences, and don't see why that MTV is not an equivalent to no-guns-here signs. There's nothing attractive, imitable, or desirable about the signs. Why would their influence trump any other gun-related perception he's been exposed to? From the dreaded mass media and Hollywood, guns are portrayed as cool and dangerous, two VERY powerful influences to children.

You are permitting anti-gun "education" to happen. In fact, if you spend money in the places that post the signs, you are ENCOURAGING it.

And if you are encouraging something on one hand, while on the other you are saying that you don't want it to happen, that, my friend, is idiotic.
I suppose that the same could be said if I vote (go into a federal building, where I can't carry), spend money (can't carry into a bank here), or send snail mail (can't carry in the post office either). That's not encouragement. The world is not so black-and-white.

I'm not calling you an idiot. This is pretty much the same as me yelling "Hey, idiot!" in a crowd, and you're the guy who turned around.
Or perhaps I was the one offended that you'd be shouting "Hey, idiot!" in a place where that kind of activity is specifically discouraged.

Through inaction, gun owners who spend money in these establishments are causing their own downfall. And it seems that some folks feel mighty proud about it.
I can only wonder whether you send snail mail, visit the bank, or ever go into federal buildings.
 
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Am I supposed to get in an argument over the meaning of the word "reinforcement" now?

(note to readers: This is typical derailment strategy, generally used by folks who are used to "spirited debates" in their college's student center. Bring up something that is vaguely and peripherally related to the matter at hand, and shift discussion to it.)

Remember, some of us "gun nut yokels" have been to college out here in "fly over country," and while they may not have been Harvard, Yale or Berkeley, they do tend to provide adequate instruction.

"Folk-psych?" Are you studying social work or something? When kids are exposed to something, they pick it up. If they are exposed repeatedly, with no instruction against something, they are more likely to pick something up... The fructose-fueled demonboy -knows- that he can go shooting. And that he can play with shooting games. And he knows that mimicking thug behavior or talking/acting about shooting people is forbidden. It's bad. Not polite. Why? Teaching.

Oh, and about about the USPS, my bank (which doesn't have a problem with concealed carry...), and having been educated, I know there's a stipulation about federal buildings and such. That's a major thing to be dealt with in the future.

I choose to pick my battles. Easy battles. Battles that I can win.

And I -can- convince a small business owner, or even some franchise managers, that they are incorrect in assuming that their "safety" sign is actually providing the safety they desire, and may in fact do the opposite. While at the same time driving off the very kind of customers they wish to attract, and keep.

I've done it.

What have you done?

Besides lose? And brag about losing?
 
You know, Bogie, I choose to pick my battles as well. I posit that yours is an ineffective one and not worth the time, which would be better spent contacting our elected representatives. There just isn't any reason to believe that no-gun posters influence kids any more than no-smoking posters, the influence of which is nominal and completely dominated by more salient and powerful factors, such as parental instruction or peer pressure. I can't put it any more clearly than that. There's just no actual support for your claim, and you straightforwardly said that you would not look for any. I really like a good discussion, but you're just being insulting. I don't visit THR to be called a "loser," and from this example of how you respond to criticism, I just can't imagine that you've persuaded a single store owner to change his or her ways.

What have you done?

Besides lose? And brag about losing?
It's clear that you don't respect anyone's opinion other than your own. I'm done here.

Bye.
 
Bogie:

What do you not understand? The Texas Legislature intended for CHL holders to be able carry just about everywhere. Because we believe in property rights, too, they placed a mechanism in place for business owners to bar lawful carry on their premesis. In order to do so, they must meet very specific criteria for giving proper notice. The law is no secret. True bigots like AMC theaters and Verizon Wireless Theater post the proper sign. People who haven't given five second's thought to RKBA throw some bogus sign up because they see it and think it might be a good sign to have up. There are even some businesses who throw up a "gunbusters" sign knowing it doesn't mean anything to CHLs.

You are wasting far too much energy looking for being surrounded by the enemy. You sleep with one eye open and a shotgun in your hand? Maybe its time for you to get some land in Montanna, circle it with concertina wire and start stockpiling stuff!

Oh, and by the way, Texas is leading the pack. We have one of the most liberal Concealed Carry laws in the country.
 
Right, whenever I see a non- binding no guns sign in Texas, I just smile and laugh because it is nothing but a joke to me and other folks who have CHLs. Such signs don't mean a thing. I see very few binding signs and I don't see them on small businesses, just big chains/franchises where the manager doesn't have an option on the sign anyway.
 
Question for you smiling fearless hard-core Texans...

If you're traveling out of state, and you are about to walk into a motel or restaurant, and they've got a sign on the door that says:

"Texans Not Welcome"

Well, do you still go in, smile, and spend your money with the people? After all, that sign probably doesn't have any legal teeth to it...

Grass-roots activity has generally proven the most effective with pro-gun stuff. Except for THR it seems...

I'm disappointed.
 
bogie, you said you like to pick the easy battles to win. Good for you taking the easy way out. I don't sweat the small stuff.

As for where I spend my money, I spend it where I get what best supports me.

I am fairly certain you do that as well. Unless you are some sort of weird self reliant guy who doesn't use commercial products, then you are patronizing anti-gun businesses. You may be using a computer made by an anti-gun company, driving a similar vehicle, using an anti-gun internet provider, buying newspapers from anti-gun media, etc.

So get off your high horse that we don't pick the fights you pick. You are just fooling yourself that you are doing a better job than the rest of us who don't share your easy battles.
 
Normally I would recommend combatting this prejudice by taking a lesson from Martin Luther King, Jr. Practice civil disobedience and nonviolent resistance. Our conundrum is that if we are civilly disobedient, it means we are armed. It's hard to argue that armed people are practicing nonviolent resistance, even though we are. Maybe we need to get the phrase "armed nonviolence" into the public's lexicon.
 
Sigh. I hate to get into dustups like this but have to say bogie is right about at least one thing - there can be little doubt that when kids see signs saying no guns they at least subliminally try to make sense of that. If they are from a gun family they might think - I wonder why they don't like guns? I like guns. But if they are not used to guns and already impacted by societal anti-gun sentiment - I think it obviousy serves to reinforce the guns are bad view. To ask if there are any university studies on that phenomenon exactly is to obfuscate. There are plenty of studies on the psychological impacts of signs. Do you really doubt that racial bias was being "reinforced" back when signs were common that said - no colored?
 
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