Whataburger bans OC in TX restaurants

[hso]

The expectation is that the chastisement from the 2A community that the TX OC groups got for harming the 2A movement and with the OC law passage there shouldn't be the pathetic Walter Mitty displays so famously plastered across the internet in selfies taken by the attention seekers.

 

[JRH6856]

The expectation is that the chastisement from the 2A community that the TX OC groups got for harming the 2A movement and with the OC law passage there shouldn't be the pathetic Walter Mitty displays so famously plastered across the internet in selfies taken by the attention seekers.

I don't know where that expectation comes from. The "Constitutional Carry" advocates are getting ready for a push for the next session 2 years in 2017, and I expect to see more of the same. The newly passed law only allow licensed open carry, and those that don't have, don't want, won't get or can't get licenses are still vocal and will continue to be active.

 

[cheygriz]

or can't get licenses are still vocal and will continue to be active.

I wonder if it ever occurs to the "open carry" folks that there just might be a darned good reason why these folks CAN'T GET the license????

 

[AKElroy]

We've made that very argument here more than once (currently there's a thread on such stupidity). But that behavior was done to push a change in the law and carried out by attention seeking idiots that were interested more in their egos than anything else. Such behavior in TX, where most of it occurred, was eventually disavowed by the Texas OC groups and it stopped (for the most part).

In this case Wattaburger is setting policy in their restaurants that exclude people complying with the new carry law before they've had any incident. By doing so they make it more probable that some misanthrope with a rifle slung over his shoulder will consider it "his God given right as a Texan" to parade up to the counter eager for someone to ask him to leave while a nitwitted accomplice records it on their phone.

I get your point. My objection to it is the implication that Wataburger is anti RKBA for making this decision. I forbid open carry on my front yard, and violators are likely to face a more energetic response than being asked to leave. I am in NO WAY anti RKBA for that stance, and neither is Wataburger. They do not forbid their EMPLOYEES from CC. Name another large, multi-state fast food company that allows that. I do not want to see their commitment to RKBA challenged over what they believe to be a reasonable policy. Again, this is not a public policy position, it is a request of their customers. Period.

 

[X-Rap]

What in Texas will prohibit a permit but allow ownership?

 

[oneounceload]

I get your point. My objection to it is the implication that Wataburger is anti RKBA for making this decision. I forbid open carry on my front yard, and violators are likely to face a more energetic response than being asked to leave. I am in NO WAY anti RKBA for that stance, and neither is Wataburger. They do not forbid their EMPLOYEES from CC. Name another large, multi-state fast food company that allows that. I do not want to see their commitment to RKBA challenged over what they believe to be a reasonable policy. Again, this is not a public policy position, it is a request of their customers. Period.

+1..........thanks for posting the obvious

 

[hso]

The "Constitutional Carry" advocates are getting ready for a push

They got beaten up pretty badly by the 2A community such that even Texas Carry repudiated the tactic of OC long guns in strange places you wouldn't expect anyone to carry a long gun anyway. I don't think they want that happening again since if 2A advocates push you away it makes you look like marginal loons that politicians can repudiate as well.

I forbid open carry on my front yard,

Unless you're running a daycare or sod business your home isn't a business open to the public and your personal choices only apply to those invited on the property. Businesses are different in that they're inviting the whole public onto their property and decisions to exclude law abiding members of the public are different than your decisions about your home. They're business decisions affecting the whole public while your decisions about who does what on your property are the rights of every man and his "castle" for guests and trespassers.

They do not forbid their EMPLOYEES from CC.

Can you point us to that policy? It is a great additional element in the discussion.

 

[JohnKSa]

I'm as strong a supporter of RKBA as anybody, and stronger than some...but even I wouldn't be at ease a with damn fool comin' into a public place decked out like a member of a Marine fire team...and I'm willing to bet that the average John Q. Public and Susie Soccermom is even less so.

If I were a restaurant owner, I'd look around at what happens when a restaurant is targeted by folks wanting to make a statement by open-carrying. It's happened more than once in recent times and the outcome hasn't been especially positive from the perspective of the restaurant whether it's during the phase where they allow it or after they finally feel like they must ban it.

 

[USAF_Vet]

It is supportive in that 1. He is a CHL holder himself, and proud of it.

Senator Diane Feinstein was/ is a CHL holder. Does that mean she is a 2A supporter?

2. He supports the RKBA.

Having a permit for yourself does not equate support of the 2A for all.

Or is his support shown more so because he and his family are hunters?

His statement did NOT contain any of the tripe normally associated with these types of requests, namely that the public would be "endangered" by the presence of OC weapons. He simply stated that it would make some of his employees and some of his customers uneasy. And, by the way, it would. Neither of those things are conducive to employee retention or hamburger selling.

You know what makes me feel uneasy? When I am eating in a fast food joint with my family, disarmed. What makes me feel more uneasy about that situation? When a group of urban youths, regardless of skin color, come bebobbing into the place with their underwear hanging out for all to see.

Let's look at the flip-side -- assume his statement was the opposite; "y'all feel free to OC in our shop!" Well, then the spectacle becomes lines of loaded AR/AK clad OC activists eating there.

Because this exact scenario is happening all over Texas in every other fast food dump that hasn't outright banned open carry.

Since that customer base will wane over time, the damage done to the loss of the "regulars" would be difficult to overcome; the controversy on either side is something businesses like this DO NOT benefit from.

If the ridiculous scenario I described above were in fact happening, with every wanna be GI Joe in the county eating their burger and fries with their ARs and AKs, then maybe this would be the outcome. Losing a customer base, even temporarily, isn't beneficial to any business. I'll agree with you there.

This is private property, folks. He is exercising a right as fundamental as the RKBA.

I agree with this, too. Too bad is justification is as equally lame as the governments justification for more gun control. "for the children" "the right to feel safe" "not one more" and every other catchy slogan they come up with to sway the general public with emotion.

OC by some (not all) is a civil activist / protest activity. (I'm referring to rifles more than pistols). Protests and "political point" making certainly have a proper place, but that place is not necessarily when I'm trying to enjoy my #2 combo, hold the onions, add jalipenos, whatasized with an unsweet tea.

Just don't think about the Luby's cafeteria massacre or the San Ysidro McDonalds massacre while you're enjoying that burger. Hope it doesn't spoil your appetite.

There's an easier way to ban militant OC protesters in your private establishment. Those who are simply and peacefully carrying openly for their own personal protection (which makes up the majority of OCers I've come across) are not the problem.

By the way, I would have the same view if they had lines of "Save the whales", PITA activist, picketers on either side of the gay marriage or abortion issue, etc. Just let me eat my burger in peace for crying out loud....

Si vis Pacem, Para Bellum.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Now folks, if one exercises their first amendment rights and starts displaying behavior that scares away customers can establishments ask them to leave? Are they denying people's rights? No?

Now Whataburger is only asking you to conceal your piece, not leave it behind. They just don't want to lose customers.

Deaf

 

[AKElroy]

Senator Diane Feinstein was/ is a CHL holder. Does that mean she is a 2A supporter?




Having a permit for yourself does not equate support of the 2A for all.

Or is his support shown more so because he and his family are hunters?



You know what makes me feel uneasy? When I am eating in a fast food joint with my family, disarmed. What makes me feel more uneasy about that situation? When a group of urban youths, regardless of skin color, come bebobbing into the place with their underwear hanging out for all to see.



Because this exact scenario is happening all over Texas in every other fast food dump that hasn't outright banned open carry.



If the ridiculous scenario I described above were in fact happening, with every wanna be GI Joe in the county eating their burger and fries with their ARs and AKs, then maybe this would be the outcome. Losing a customer base, even temporarily, isn't beneficial to any business. I'll agree with you there.



I agree with this, too. Too bad is justification is as equally lame as the governments justification for more gun control. "for the children" "the right to feel safe" "not one more" and every other catchy slogan they come up with to sway the general public with emotion.



Just don't think about the Luby's cafeteria massacre or the San Ysidro McDonalds massacre while you're enjoying that burger. Hope it doesn't spoil your appetite.

There's an easier way to ban militant OC protesters in your private establishment. Those who are simply and peacefully carrying openly for their own personal protection (which makes up the majority of OCers I've come across) are not the problem.



Si vis Pacem, Para Bellum.

Ok, what do you propose? A boycott? Maybe a lawsuit to force their compliance? LOTS OF THAT GOING AROUND THESE DAYS. Frankly I've had my fill of this totalitarian, zero budge, black and white, your either for us or against us BS.

Freedom loving, RKBA supporting folk can disagree on OC and still be on the same side. No one here, especially me, is opposed to Unrestricted (by GOVERNMENT, not every PRIVATE business) constitutional open carry. Apparently, some folks think the 2A is the ONLY right they are interested in fighting for.

Some folks can handle another's contrasting viewpoint, and some can't. "What, you freaking burger people are politely asking me to leave my AK under my coat? Screw you! Gun hating scum! I knew you all were Obama loving scum the second I saw the salad on the menu....

Ridiculous.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Ok, what do you propose? A boycott? Maybe a lawsuit to force their compliance? LOTS OF THAT GOING AROUND THESE DAYS. Frankly I've had my fill of this totalitarian, zero budge, black and white, your either for us or against us BS.

I propose people should comply with their local laws. I believe businesses should also comply with their local laws.
If they (Wataburger) want to ban OC, why don't they simply post a sign that is in compliance with Texas law? I believe it's a 30.05 to ban open carry on premises. Simple. Done, and within the law. Sure, a small minority will still get upset and make a fuss over it, which will be largely ignored.

Freedom loving, RKBA supporting folk can disagree on OC and still be on the same side. No one here, especially me, is opposed to Unrestricted (by GOVERNMENT, not every PRIVATE business) constitutional open carry.

I'm all for business rights as well. As long as they comply with state law, they can ban whatever they want, so long as they do so legally. A feel good letter does not hold the weight of law in Texas. It may set policy, but as it does not comply with the law, it will only cause more problems as you now put your employees in a position where they will have to confront open carriers who are in full compliance with the law. Post the proper signage, eliminate all concern. If they only ban Open Carry but still allow Concealed, then great, post the proper signs in accordance with state law.

Apparently, some folks think the 2A is the ONLY right they are interested in fighting for.

Maybe. But as THR is primarily about the 2A, pro 2A rights will tend to be the dominant focus for most discussions.

Some folks can handle another's contrasting viewpoint, and some can't. "What, you freaking burger people are politely asking me to leave my AK under my coat? Screw you! Gun hating scum! I knew you all were Obama loving scum the second I saw the salad on the menu....

Ridiculous.

Yep, that is ridiculous. Not sure what it relates to, though. I don't know about Texas, but I do know most state do not allow concealed carry of long guns, with or without any sort of licensing.

 

[alexander45]

This is the bit that sticks me

"and we’re known for a family friendly atmosphere that customers have come to expect from us. We’re the gathering spot for Little League teams, church groups and high school kids after football games."

It's kinda like reading we have all of these good wholesome folk and we don't need you gun folk spooking them because ya know gun folk arnt any of these things just basement dwelling weirdos.

 

[JRH6856]

OC by some (not all) is a civil activist / protest activity. (I'm referring to rifles more than pistols). Protests and "political point" making certainly have a proper place, but that place is not necessarily when I'm trying to enjoy my #2 combo, hold the onions, add jalipenos, whatasized with an unsweet tea.

Just don't think about the Luby's cafeteria massacre or the San Ysidro McDonalds massacre while you're enjoying that burger. Hope it doesn't spoil your appetite.

About that. As a result of that Luby's massacre, Texas decided to license concealed carry in 1995. So feeling safe by being armed while eating a Whataburger is no problem, because all they are asking is that we continue doing what we have been doing for 20 years. :banghead:

 

[AKElroy]

Senator Diane Feinstein was/ is a CHL holder. Does that mean she is a 2A supporter?




Having a permit for yourself does not equate support of the 2A for all.

Or is his support shown more so because he and his family are hunters?



You know what makes me feel uneasy? When I am eating in a fast food joint with my family, disarmed. What makes me feel more uneasy about that situation? When a group of urban youths, regardless of skin color, come bebobbing into the place with their underwear hanging out for all to see.



Because this exact scenario is happening all over Texas in every other fast food dump that hasn't outright banned open carry.



If the ridiculous scenario I described above were in fact happening, with every wanna be GI Joe in the county eating their burger and fries with their ARs and AKs, then maybe this would be the outcome. Losing a customer base, even temporarily, isn't beneficial to any business. I'll agree with you there.



I agree with this, too. Too bad is justification is as equally lame as the governments justification for more gun control. "for the children" "the right to feel safe" "not one more" and every other catchy slogan they come up with to sway the general public with emotion.



Just don't think about the Luby's cafeteria massacre or the San Ysidro McDonalds massacre while you're enjoying that burger. Hope it doesn't spoil your appetite.

There's an easier way to ban militant OC protesters in your private establishment. Those who are simply and peacefully carrying openly for their own personal protection (which makes up the majority of OCers I've come across) are not the problem.



Si vis Pacem, Para Bellum.

I don't see in this post that you are simply wanting to see the proper signs allowing them to "legally" ban OC on their premises, as you state in your follow-up. As for the Luby's massacre, just don't. Killeen is my hometown, and when George Hennard drove his truck through the front of that Luby's and shot up half the townsfolk, he was doing it in a place that me and my family had dined many times. I will never forget frantically calling family to ensure they were safe. All of them were, but they also knew and grieved for many that were killed. That shooting is the reason I CC everyday.

It was Suzanna Huff's testimony before the Texas House that led to the passage of our current CHL law, given after she watched her parents die in front of her, powerless to do anything about it. She did not advocate for OC then, so your using that incident as a reference is not helping your cause.

As for "enjoying my meal"'in the absence of the safety afforded by Paul Blart and whatever tactiagear he happens to be flaunting, that would be difficult at the Luby's you mention, as they raised it to the ground after the horror that occurred there.

As for being able to enjoy a meal at Wataburger despite their disallowing OC'ing "protectors" to be there to ensure my safety, I think I will enjoy my number two combo just fine, preferring to rely on the CC G23 on my hip.

 

[hso]

The Lubby's massacre has nothing to do with this situation and dragging it up is just a red herring. Waste of pixels on the page.

I knew you all were Obama loving scum the second I saw the salad on the menu....

Depends upon what's on that salad!

Everyone wants to go straight to 11 on the dial on this. It isn't just the extreme end of the spectrum that is going to be impacted. It's the guy in a jacket with an OWB holstered S&W that comes in and wants to take his jacket off and enjoy a burger with his daugter's soccer team. Its the mom that wants to take off her sweater vest and have sundaes with her son's little league team that has an IWB Kahr under that. If some posturing boob comes in wanting to get a selfie of himself with his AK the management is more than within their rights to tell him to get off the property for making a scene and disturbing the guests, but they don't need to exclude folks like AKElroy or USAF_Vet to do it.

 

[tarosean]

I'm all for business rights as well. As long as they comply with state law, they can ban whatever they want, so long as they do so legally. A feel good letter does not hold the weight of law in Texas. It may set policy, but as it does not comply with the law, it will only cause more problems as you now put your employees in a position where they will have to confront open carriers who are in full compliance with the law.

In accordance with TX Law, all they have to do is ask you to leave.

 

[wojownik]

If some posturing boob comes in wanting to get a selfie of himself with his AK the management is more than within their rights to tell him to get off the property for making a scene and disturbing the guest, but they don't need to exclude folks like AKElroy or USAF_Vet to do it.

Point taken, but the other side of the equation is that the "management" (probably a twenty-something kid - maybe even a teenager) would be in the uncomfortable position of approaching the posturing AK-laden boob Not the king of thing a 20-something manager (or whomevers on duty) may feel up to doing, for fear of a confrontation. Or dealing with the mess of calling the police to ask the boob to leave. So corporate ducked the entire question, banning OC.

But, still, a meaningless corporate statement unless actually posted, right?

Philosophically, i think part of the underlying discussion here seems to touch upon the treatment of the second amendment as a civil right (equal protection regardless of race, gender, national origin, color, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, or disability) versus the 2A as an individual right (along with freedom of speech, etc.).

A business (even as a place of public accommodation like a restaurant like Whataburger) would be in deep if they discriminated against the civil rights of folks (refusal to serve based on race, gender, etc...).

But, such a place has a lot more latitude in not honoring individual rights ... they can more readily restrict certain types of conduct on their premises.

Like it or note, OC is a polarizing topic right now for businesses. They have no interest in being dragged into the debate, pro or con. It's the posturing boobs - on BOTH sides of the debate - that have created an environment that businesses just don't want to deal with. It's hard enough to keep a business afloat without folks abusing their 1A and 2A rights.

 

[moxie]

Much ado when, like I said in post #12, none of the Texas CHL holders I know intend to OC anyway. The few who do "exercise their right" by OCing will go away once the new wears off and peer pressure kicks in.

 

[jmorris]

I don't remember the last time I actually went into a fast food business let alone a whataburger.

I am all for the right to open carry (eventhough I think it is a bad idea).

I am all for the right of the owner of a business to control what is allowed in said business and all for the rights of people to avoid the business.

That said, I'll never see the sign in the drive through anyway.

 

[AKElroy]

Point taken, but the other side of the equation is that the "management" (probably a twenty-something kid - maybe even a teenager) would be in the uncomfortable position of approaching the posturing AK-laden boob Not the king of thing a 20-something manager (or whomevers on duty) may feel up to doing, for fear of a confrontation. Or dealing with the mess of calling the police to ask the boob to leave. So corporate ducked the entire question, banning OC.

But, still, a meaningless corporate statement unless actually posted, right?

Philosophically, i think part of the underlying discussion here seems to touch upon the treatment of the second amendment as a civil right (equal protection regardless of race, gender, national origin, color, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, or disability) versus the 2A as an individual right (along with freedom of speech, etc.).

A business (even as a place of public accommodation like a restaurant like Whataburger) would be in deep if they discriminated against the civil rights of folks (refusal to serve based on race, gender, etc...).

But, such a place has a lot more latitude in not honoring individual rights ... they can more readily restrict certain types of conduct on their premises.

Like it or note, OC is a polarizing topic right now for businesses. They have no interest in being dragged into the debate, pro or con. It's the posturing boobs - on BOTH sides of the debate - that have created an environment that businesses just don't want to deal with. It's hard enough to keep a business afloat without folks abusing their 1A and 2A rights.

Given the public statement requesting no OC, I am sure their insurance carrier will be requiring the proper posting. If there were, God forbid, some gun related incident, they could be liable if they are shown to 1. Have a policy, and 2. Not follow through with actually enforcing it. In court, the letter would be presented as an awareness of a potential threat, and the lack of the signage as failure to act to prevent said threat. That would likely be a quick judgement for the plainitiff, hence their liability provider will either require they backtrack to allow OC, or fully post in compliance with the law.

 

[another pake]

Businesses make business decisions all the time. You and I live with most of them because we feel that we can or do support them, or sometimes, it's just better for everyone when there are directives. Businesses paint stripes on their parking lots because it helps them get you into the store without incident. Not everyone pays attention to the stripes and if enough people didn't you'd quit going to that store because the inconveniences wouldn't be worth the hassle.

Why does everything have to become about rights?

My rights verses your rights kind of thinking will not help our various causes.
Your thumb in my eye will only make my eye sore and my feelings about your rights will fall way down on the list of important concerns for me.

If someone decided to exercise their 1st A right of free speech to pontificate about any issue, while in the restaurant, and you were trying to relax with a friend, you'd probably ask the manager to intervene. You might decide to leave.

It's Business. Get over it.

Truthfully, when encountering these types of individuals, I have learned to tune my antenna very carefully. It's called "Situational Awareness", and distance is your friend. The possibility of instability becomes a factor.

 

[hso]

Given the public statement requesting no OC, I am sure their insurance carrier will be requiring the proper posting.

That's not happened at Starbucks or any of the other businesses that requested OC stay OD (off property) so I suspect it isn't a requirement. Their decision to post will be purely based on their desire to enforce their request or not.

 

[guyfromohio]

Ohio: a few years ago, the laws were changed to allow CC at restaurants as long as alcohol wasn't being consumed by the carrier. Many places felt the need to publicly state that they would not be allowing it. Signs were posted and urban hipsters celebrated. I haven't seen a sign in any of these places for years. I think this is a reaction to the partisan outrage about OC legalization in TX. My bet is that their restriction will unceremoniously evaporate over time and the opposition will be none the wiser.

 

[X-Rap]

Bingo^^^^^
Once people get used to it I doubt there will be any issues.