When do we use the 2nd Amendment

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When this becomes relevant ...

Look at your rights and freedoms as what would be required to survive and be free as if there were no government. Governments come and go, but your rights live on. If you wish to survive government, you must protect with jealous resolve all the powers that come with your rights - especially with the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Without the power of those arms, you will perish with that government - or at its hand. B.E. Wood​

... It's time.

Woody
 
When this becomes relevant ...

Look at your rights and freedoms as what would be required to survive and be free as if there were no government. Governments come and go, but your rights live on. If you wish to survive government, you must protect with jealous resolve all the powers that come with your rights - especially with the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Without the power of those arms, you will perish with that government - or at its hand. B.E. Wood
... It's time.

Woody

Whoa there... "It's time"? I hope you realize the gravity of what you are suggesting. In and of itself, action towards that end is treason, and if that weren't bad enough, do some research upon what happens in modern developed countries when they undergo revolution or the inevitable economic instability or collapse. It isn't pretty.

I'd like to counter your statement with one of my own, from the Declaration:
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

Have we exhausted all alternate methods at our disposal? I hardly think so. Tread lightly, for you are standing on some dangerous ground...
 
huntsman said:
Sorry I have a strong distain for PAC's, lobbyists ... I'm a NRA member
You do realize what the NRA is and what it does, right?
nraila.org said:
Established in 1975, the Institute for Legislative Action (ILA) is the “lobbying” arm of the National Rifle Association of America...
 
Shadow Man said:
Whoa there... "It's time"?

Relax. "It's time" when what I spelled out in brown becomes relevant, or actionable. When it becomes actionable, it isn't treason. It's self defense and the defense of freedom from tyranny. At that point, if you can only wish to survive government, you didn't protect with jealous resolve all the powers that came with your rights - especially with that Right to Keep and Bear Arms. At that point, it'll be well beyond light and transient causes. Right now we suffer evils that are sufferable; sufferable in that we can still do the political arena thing. We are not forced to join the evil on the battlefield until the political arena fails and tyranny marches to the head of the table. My sentiment is nothing more than common sense that all of us should be aware of and heed.

Let no one put you and your rights asunder.

Woody

Our government was designed by our Founding Fathers to fit within the framework of our rights and not vise versa. Any other "interpretation" of the Constitution is either through ignorance or is deliberately subversive. B.E. Wood
 
Okay, I misread your post ConstitutionCowboy, my apologies. I didn't mean to come off so strong, but with the number of "SHTF", "TEOTWAWKI", and other threads that are so common here, and seem to fulfill some fantasy, I felt I had to be a little harsh.

Sometimes it seems to me that too many get a thrill up their leg when they think of rebellion, instead of a chill down their spine.
 
when its time to ask it should have already happened

I have been called headstrong a few times, and been accused of not looking before I lept, but I would never think anything along the lines of this quote...I don't know if the true gravity of the situation is evading you, or if you really have that thin of a grasp of reality. I hope for everyones sake that the post was merely internet bravado...
 
Shadow Man said:
Okay, I misread your post ConstitutionCowboy, my apologies. I didn't mean to come off so strong, but with the number of "SHTF", "TEOTWAWKI", and other threads that are so common here, and seem to fulfill some fantasy, I felt I had to be a little harsh.

No problem. No offense taken.

Shadow Man said:
Sometimes it seems to me that too many get a thrill up their leg when they think of rebellion, instead of a chill down their spine.

:D I get kind of a combination. What I get runs down my leg. My "SHTF/TEOTWAWKI" kit comes with a box of "Depends".:what:

Woody
 
Whoa there... "It's time"? I hope you realize the gravity of what you are suggesting. In and of itself, action towards that end is treason, and if that weren't bad enough, do some research upon what happens in modern developed countries when they undergo revolution or the inevitable economic instability or collapse. It isn't pretty.

I'd like to counter your statement with one of my own, from the Declaration:


Have we exhausted all alternate methods at our disposal? I hardly think so. Tread lightly, for you are standing on some dangerous ground...
You've read his words completely out of context...
 
I have been called headstrong a few times, and been accused of not looking before I lept, but I would never think anything along the lines of this quote...I don't know if the true gravity of the situation is evading you, or if you really have that thin of a grasp of reality. I hope for everyones sake that the post was merely internet bravado...

not to the extent of full on militia revolution but we should emphasized our right a long time ago if we had done that we probably never would have had an assault weapon ban or the NFA


sure the OP may or may not have ment a full on april 19, 1775 but if we started off smaller by pushing how much we want out rights then we wouldnt be in the position now where many feel that "the NRA is the only reason we still have our guns", quote courtesy of my ex's father and everyone in the room agreed, a total of 75 people at a hunting club.

but no matter how you took my post or this one i still have no faith in our government and haven't for along time and in my experience not a whole lot of people do. we should be able to trust the people we elect but i guess that turns more into an election debate than 2A
 
This is a good question. I have thought about it a lot. I think one of the major things that will bring people together enough to take up arms is when food starts disappearing off the grocery shelves and peoples families start starving.

That aside, I'm not positive that even that will stir men to action. I don't think there are enough men willing to put their lives on the line for our freedom and way of life. Soldiers excepted. This includes the members of gun forums. I have read a lot of the banter on forums and the majority would rather talk, and when the subject of actually putting the 2nd Amendment to the test there is a lot of crawfishing. I don't mean to cause hard feelings, but we must be willing to protect our Constitution by any means.

I am old enough to remember more freedoms than we have today. We as a society let a lot of them slip away, as we are doing now. Our schools are teaching our kids lies about our countries history, but we allow it to continue. Everyone is afraid to say anything that might offend someone else because we are now Politically Correct. It goes on but these are two good examples. If we wait too long to excersize our right it will be too late. It would be interesting to see where our cutoff really is.
 
^^^^ doesnt makign schools politically correct defeat the purpose of free speech?


as society evolves our rights are at risk
 
Yes, it does defeat the purpose of free speech. They should teach the true history of our country and not a PC history. You are right about the evolution of our society. I am not a fan of some of the things we now allow, but say nothing unless it affects my family.
 
Imagine in 1776 . Poeple having this discussion. Thing is they had the guts to act on what was happening to them. The coloniststs took years of British opression . It took the actions of the British at Lexington and Concord to spure the colonists into open armed rebellion. Thats right . Dead Americans. We already had a Lexington and Concord with the Clinton gun ban . What did we as gun owners do ? Comply. As we always do. As for when is it time ? The time is not now . It has passed with each infringemant. Each law. Every form 4 ,NIC's check, purchase form. Carry permits and the finger printing and photographs. All infringemants. Yet we do nothing. When are the citizens going to quit playing by polititans rules, verbal sword play . This is not a game and not a chess match of wits . This is life and our right to live it . Not be a slave to to a socialist/globalist regime. Nuf said . Thats right. I do not know how to do paragraphs yet.
 
You do realize what the NRA is and what it does, right?
yes I know and it's a compromise on my part I want my membership to count numbers wise, but I only give money for yearly dues.

It makes me sick that we have to play the game that Washington plays just to hang onto something we shouldn't be losing in the first place.

It seems we (gun owners) are content to payoff .gov (with contributions) instead of taking a stand.
 
You've read his words completely out of context...

StarDust1, yes sir, I realize that I did. ConstitutionCowboy and I have resolved the matter, though. I was in error for reading his post too quickly, and becoming distracted by the brown lettering. (Being computer illiterate, anything fancy like that distracts me :p)

Mike91A, you are correct with your reasoning that we have allowed ourselves to merely accept each new infringement without (much of) a fight. However, the Founders made something very clear when they wrote:
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
Now, your defenition of "light and transient causes" will most assuredly differ from mine, but I hardly see how CCW's, Number 4 forms, background checks and the like are reason enough for armed rebellion. That is, after all, what is being discussed, is it not? (In a very high-road manner, I might add. Well done Gentlemen.) The Amendment states "Shall not be Infringed" not "Shall not be Infringed or Restricted." CCW's, background checks, etc, are "inconvienances" not "infringements." At least, as I see it.

ConstitutionCowboy:
My "SHTF/TEOTWAWKI" kit comes with a box of "Depends".
As it should sir, as it should.

but no matter how you took my post or this one i still have no faith in our government and haven't for along time and in my experience not a whole lot of people do. we should be able to trust the people we elect but i guess that turns more into an election debate than 2A
I cannot, for reasons I choose not to disclose, comment upon my faith (or lack therof) in the Government. I cannot argue with your point though; not many people seem to have much faith in the Government, or in those they elect. A sad state of affairs, and one that needs to be remedied post-haste.
 
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Agreed with Mike post #65

You have hit the nail right on the head. I agree with some of what others here have said, but, I believe I would repeat word for word what you just said and it would express my very own feelings. The time has passed for action to have been taken. Just like the snake (enemy) in the bible, the enemy of this country has been working to undermine the very foundations of our country. I'm waiting...........:fire:
 
First they will take our "assault weapons" and we will comply.
Than they will take our handguns and we will comply.
Than everything that is not a single shot and we will comply.
And when they come for our single shots we will be left with nothing to resist with.
 
Shadow Man said:
The Amendment states "Shall not be Infringed" not "Shall not be Infringed or Restricted." CCW's, background checks, etc, are "inconvienances" not "infringements." At least, as I see it.

I'm glad you included the "... as I see it." In truth, you cannot restrict something without infringing upon it.

Woody
 
I'm glad you included the "... as I see it." In truth, you cannot restrict something without infringing upon it.

ConstitutionCowboy, I did include the "as I see it" for a reason. I am not closed to changing my mind, or admitting that I am wrong. In this case, I pondered what you wrote for almost half an hour, and I have to agree. You are correct. Any restriction upon a right is, in fact, an infringement upon your freedom to excercise that right...I take back what I said. Thank you.
 
Shadow Man,

You're welcome, and welcome to the club!

All words mean things. Some have several meanings, some subject to nuance, some meanings subject to context, and some words are absolute(one meaning and one meaning only, not subject to context or any nuance). "Infringe" is one of those absolute words. Words like "infringe" SET the context and prevent nuance.

Woody

I see it clearly as fact. Words mean things. Just as numbers have value, you can add, subtract, multiply and divide them. I just do the math. B.E. Wood
 
The question isn't about the absoluteness of 'infringed'.

Earlier today I read someone's take on the 1st amendment. This was a well educated and widely cited person of much influence. They, offhandedly, asserted that freedom of speech was a right because it strengthened democracy.

Now I, uneducated and lout that I am, would've shot back with, "Yeah right...that's why non-infringement of that right is lumped along with freedom of religion... because free religion and free speech both strengthen democracy." I would've rolled my eyes too. To me it is obvious that the right to speak my mind to anyone who chooses to associate with me has nothing to do with government, any more than my right to go to whatever church I want (or no church at all). But to them the right to free speech was associated with furthering democracy and it was not an untenable argument, given the ", and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" tacked onto the end of the 1st.

Why am I bringing that up? If the Right to Free Speech is the right to participate in the democratic process, then speech not related to the democratic process (such as talk about target shooting) is not protected. If my broader definition is used, then all speech (including everything from sex talk to politi..well, that's redundant but you know what I mean) is protected.

It all comes down to grammar. Did they declare no laws regarding {religion, speech, press, assemble} to petition the government to redress grievances? Or did they declare no laws regarding {religion}, {speech}, {press}, {assemble}, and {petition the government}? Or no laws regarding {religion}, {speech}, {press}, {assemble and petition the government}?

The 1st bars a completely different set of laws depending on which of those interpretations you follow.

Same sort of questions hold with the 2nd. "The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms" is a noun, describing some known concept, and whether a given law (such as against concealed carry) infringes that concept depends entirely on what "The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms" is. You and I think the right is for us, private citizens, to do pretty much anything related to keeping, carrying, and using guns. Others think "The People" is intended in the "The People v. Larry Flynt" sense and the 2nd was to prevent what happened in Tijuana Mexico in 2007, when the Federal Government of Mexico confiscated all the guns from the city police force.

You can read "infringed" as absolutely as you want, but unless you own the definition of the right, our opponents can turn around and argue that a particular law doesn't infringe on the right at all even as it clearly does to us.

A lot of the current progress in building up good pro-gun 2A case law started with establishing our conception of that named right (RotPtKBA) as the right conception. Finding historical citations (Such as a Senate journal entry showing that the Senate rejected "the wording bear arms for the common defense" as part of the original 2A) and shaping an academic understanding of what, exactly, the people who wrote the 2A thought they were naming when they named that right. Only once "The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms" is universally understood to mean what we think it means does the absoluteness of "infringed" become an issue.
 
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Ed,

The problem is that there is no right to free speech. There is freedom of speech, and it's protected from abridgment, but not protected from infringement.

Another difference is that freedom of speech relates to the use of a language whereas the keeping and bearing of arms has nothing to do with with the use of those arms.

Woody
 
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