when is a rifle/shotgun considered a pistol?

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A rifle cannot become a pistol: it can become a Short Barrel Rifle SBR with the aid of an ATF Form 1 and federal registry ($200.00 tax) or if no form 1 it can become like the gun in the Ed Wood movie Jail Bait.

A virgin receiver for a 1892 WInchester, AR15, AK47, can be built as a pistol as long as all the laws on pistols are followed.

The rationale for restricting sawn-off rifles and shotguns is to prevent people ineligible to buy a handgun from making one. Since 1934, the makers of the rules and regulations have lost sight of that purpose and the rules have become their own purpose.
 
So then to build a double or single barrel 10 inch muzzeloader 12 gauge shotgun pistol from scratch on a virgin frame or lock should be ok.

I'd consult a competent attorney or get something from ATF in writing.

Additionally, make sure what you want to use is hunting legal in the jurisdiction you're intending to shoot in as well.

My sporting purpose would be hunting some cottontails in pa., usually close shots on the run.

You don't define sporting purpose, ATF does.

If we could define sporting purpose, I'd love to sportingly destroy some water balloons in a timed competition with a post-1986-manfacture machinegun :(
 
Folks, antiques or reproductions thereof are NOT bound by the NFA.

This is how you can legally have the Colt black powder pistols (or their modern Uberti clones) with a shoulder stock.

Same goes for black powder muzzle loading shotguns. Short barrels are okay, under federal law.

The ATF has nothing to do with 'em.
 
I'd consult a competent attorney or get something from ATF in writing.

Additionally, make sure what you want to use is hunting legal in the jurisdiction you're intending to shoot in as well.

Why? Muzzleloading arms are Federally not firearms under ANY law I know of. I've seen a 10ga 14" barreled short shotgun, muzzleloading. The owner said it was right handy for camping. :D
 
couple more points to get clear on guys:

"The rationale for restricting sawn-off rifles and shotguns is to prevent people ineligible to buy a handgun from making one. Since 1934, the makers of the rules and regulations have lost sight of that purpose and the rules have become their own purpose."

nope, wrong..........there was no federal law in 1935 that prohibited certain folks from possession of ANY sort of firearm. That crap didnt occur until the GCA of 1968. In 1937 Congress did pass allow that allowed for the federal prosecution of criminals who used handguns in Interstate crimes however federaly even an ex con could own a handgun until 1968 created the prohibited persons language. The reason was Sawed off shotguns were already recognized as a tool of the criminal as were cut down rifles. There simply were no such things as ineligible people until the creation of the "prohibited persons" catagory under the 1968 GCA.

Next point is "Antiques" not being relevant under the NFA
Wrong again
If it fires ANY form of self contained round it can still be regulated under the NFA's language. ATF removed a goodly number of antique era manufactured {pre 1899} guns from regulation under the NFA due to their age, rarity and value but if the model or individual gun has not been specifically exempted by FTB its still prosecutable as an NFA violation. The reason so few Stevens Pocket rifles retain their stocks is due to this. Same situation with stock cut S&W #3 models as well as a variety of others. I have actually owned a Stevens Pocket Rifle that had an IRS number stamped on it when it was registered in 35'. Some years back I bought an 1885 Maxim from a collector in Canada. The gun was just a shell with few internal parts and was chambered in .45. Try as I might ATF would not allow the import of the piece as an antique and refused to even consider exempting it regardless of its antique date of manufacture under the GCA and non available round.
All that said so long as your weapon uses a non fixed round you are outside NFA and GCA restrictions.
I will warn folks tho I was thrown in jail for a night over a sawed off SxS 12 gauge muzzleloader. The officer absolutely refused to accept that it was not regulated in any way under state and federal law. Following morning the duty Sargent took my advice and contacted ATF who set them straight but they were not at all happy about it, even less happy that they had to return the piece. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck most Cops will figure it naturally IS a Duck.
Know your Laws as the enforcers in general Don't.
 
Folks, antiques or reproductions thereof are NOT bound by the NFA.

Yes, I'm well aware of this. Poster asked about a muzzle-loading 12 guage - not a reproduction.

While I'm aware of inlines etc, there still has to be care taken that the thing can't be readily converted to take actual 12g shells and whatnot.

Color me paranoid, especially when it's a 3-post person asking 'what can I make' questions involving what can also be a modern-shell-capable design if done improperly or with malice.

Telling someone to consult an attorney is *never* bad advice when making a firearm.
 
If you build a 12 gauge muzzle loading shotgun properly, it will never be able to accept a cartridge as it will not be chambered. Chamber section of the barrel in a cartridge 12 gauge is larger diameter designed to accept the shell. A muzzlelaoder cannot have a chamber or else the wad would be too loose. Its bore needs to be the same diameter as the wad throughout except for a choke section at the muzzle . Besides the back end needs a screwed in breech plug in order to complete the deal. I can always make the breech plug permanent if necessary. Readily convertible probably does not include a chamber reamer and a lathe

Thank you for your concern though
 
The reason was Sawed off shotguns were already recognized as a tool of the criminal as were cut down rifles. There simply were no such things as ineligible people until the creation of the "prohibited persons" catagory under the 1968 GCA.
No, I wish people wouldn't just adopt logic that sounds good today.
Politicians and various people such as the Brady bunch always go on record saying stupid things, sometimes generations later people take it as having been fact.

The real reason cut down long arms were outlawed was because handguns were listed to be outlawed in the NFA. In fact handguns were the primary purpose of the NFA, machineguns were just a secondary bonus included due to concerns over ww1 vets.
The reason handguns were the target was handguns were used in the majority of crimes just like today, they also however have a lot of support from the population because they are the most used firearm in defense as well.

So the primary purpose of the NFA was to outlaw handguns. The tax was designed to put the listed firearms out of reach of most, as it was the great depression and $200 was a lot of money then, involving a process most could not simply research on the internet or the local library.
At the time the federal government did not believe it had the constitutional authority to outlaw anything, merely to tax, so they chose to outlaw through taxation. They did the same thing to outlaw drugs for example which they also did not believe they had the legal authority to outlaw.

Even the NFA was felt unconstitional by most judges as it targeted a specific right and that was the national consenses as is seen in the Miller case a few years later and in commentary by judges throughout the nation on the case. Even most of those that agreed with the aim of the NFA felt it was unconstitional. Even the Supreme Court did not uphold the NFA then, Miller simply died and nobody showed up to prove his case before the Supreme Court. The Justices could not legaly consider evidence never formaly entered and had to rely on the prosecution's side exclusively.
In fact the justices in thier wording even acknowledge Miller would have prevailed if someone could present evidence the items in question had military purpose IE suitable for the militia. Short barreled shotguns most certainly were used in ww1 so it goes without saying that had Miller survived or even someone argued on his behalf the NFA would have been thrown out. Nobody did though.


Since the primary purpose of the NFA was to outlaw handguns they couldn't have people simply cutting down longarms to replace them. So additional measures such as restrictions on reducing the size of longarms was added to compliment the handgun "ban".
When at the last moment handguns were removed from the legislation the complimentary portions restricting long arm dimensions were left in as an oversight.
Since that time various people have invented logic that sounds good today but was not the purpose or intent at the time. The purpose was so people would not still essentialy be able to make handguns from longarms when handguns were banned.

Further much of the restrictions that exist in the NFA today were added much later by legislation such as the 1968 GCA. Destructive devices for example limiting caliber to .50 and below were added at that point. So even though they are part of a 1934 law they were added many years afterwards further clouding understanding of the history of the legislation.

The NFA was a handgun ban. They attached machineguns to the handgun ban, but handguns were the primary target. Most machineguns famously used by criminals were actualy stolen from police or military and the legislation would not have even had much effect.
Handguns were removed from the handgun ban, but the antis ever mindful to get what they can still pushed the leftovers through.

The public was sold the BS legislation as an anti-crime bill but the real reasons for the machinegun addition to the handgun ban were concerns of those in power at the time.
The truth is WW1 vets promised many things were being screwed over by the government. When the vets peacefully marched on washington and camped outside the capitol those in power wanted to add machineguns to the handgun ban. Especialy since they used tanks to break them up. Even after they cheered the arrival of the military, thinking it was a parade celebrating thier cause. Imagine thier surprise.
The government did not want upset vets with lots of military experience legaly able to have machineguns afterwards. Keep in mind this is a time when trench warfare is still the name of the military game, so machineguns are an extremely formidable weapon in the hands of trained veterans.
 
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The first drafts of the NFA included a federal restriction (prohibitive tax) on handguns. The movement to have states enact uniform pistol laws preceeded the 1934 NFA; the federal restrictions on sawn-off rifles and shotguns can be seen as a backup to the uniform pistol acts after handgun restrictions were removed from the NFA.
 
I have read a great deal of the original material related to the 1935 act and while true its initial version did include formidible handgun control provisions at the hands of the Devil himself Treasury Sec. Morganthau these elements were rapidly striped from it particularly after senior federal LE, {I belive it was the AG} stepped forward and stated that such an act would likely result in a Civil War. America was still a predominantly rural nation at this point and it was accepted that the people themselves would never stand for such an act.
As far as the idea that states were enacting firearms regulation of their own, only slightly true. Weapons regulation was occuring in the urban North East but that was hardly anything new. Consider these same states and municipalities had prohibitions on Derringers and Bowie knives as "tools of the assassin" as early as the 1840s
Most of the rest of the Union which remained rural until after WWII had little regulation until State legeslatures began mirroring provisions of the GCA after it became law in 68'
 
Here is another example: most people would agree that JHP ammo is superior for self protection in a pistol. The New Jersey state legislature is a bit schizophrenic, and allows law enforcement officers to use them. Only law enforcement officers. When the officer retires, he or she must use FMJ.

I never could understand the logic behind the JHP argument and any negative stigma attached to such ammo. Sure, JHP ammo is superior for "stopping" abilities vs FMJ, but isnt FMJ ammo usually far more penetrative? Thus, shouldnt FMJ ammo be considered "less safe" vs JHP? Politics....meh.

"tools of the assassin"

Ive heard this way too much lately; its completely ridiculous (are there really any "assassins" left anyway?). Besides, it shouldnt necessarily be about the weapon used, but how effectively it is used (ie. by a professional or..bleh..an "assassin"). To categorize any weapon as "used by assassins" is almost infantile.

Fear of the unknown, backed by ridiculous and inflated claims regarding ammo and weapons (per the anti-gun crowd) will always be the bane of any responsible owner of weapons. This is quite unfortunate and frankly, tiresome.
 
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Understand the "Tools of the Assassin" phrase was out of the 1840s
Gun Control is not at all new in this nation
 
Some posts have mentioned "rifled" slug barrels for shotguns. I might be wrong but I think slug barrels for shotguns are smooth bore barrels, usually shorter than skeet or bird hunting barrels and fit with rifle sights and open choke.
 
Understand the "Tools of the Assassin" phrase was out of the 1840s
Gun Control is not at all new in this nation

I understand all of this...

However, I have heard the term "used by assassins," somewhat recently to describe various weapons. So, apparently, this phrase is still being used in a haphazard manner.
 
"rifled" slug barrels for shotguns.

TCOV --"" Some posts have mentioned "rifled" slug barrels for shotguns. I might be wrong but I think slug barrels for shotguns are smooth bore barrels, usually shorter than skeet or bird hunting barrels and fit with rifle sights and open choke. --""

No A rifled slug barrel has rifling from start to finish inside the barrel.

I Wonder would a 12 gauge cartridge pistol be legal if the barrel was rifled ? or is the bore too large ?
 
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