When to say when?

[MakBaba]

If you’re wanting to duplicate factory velocities or wanting the flattest shooting round possible, at what point do you stop? What signs are you looking for from an AR fired case? Primer appearance is unreliable. What about ejector smears?
I understand many are just looking for an accurate load and velocity is a distant second consideration, but that’s not what I’m talking about. The advice is “Start low and work up slow”. But work up to what? What am I looking for? I’m guessing very few of us have a blade micrometer to measure case expansion in the extractor groove.

 

[Blue68f100]

I never want to duplicate factory loads. I'm looking for something that is accurate in my gun. Factory loads are a general plinking load which gemerally do not deliver the best accuracy. And the velocity posted on the box is generally not what you get out of your gun. The use of a crony will help you if your goal is to duplicate velocity. Just remember that the factory used canister powder which in most cases is not available to us.

As for a AR, detecting over pressure is a little more involved. Your reading markings on the brass head generally, imprints and primer. A bolt gun is a lot easier to do since you have the feel of lifting the bolt. A lot of AR's are over gassed, which means the brass is generally going forward and stretching the brass badly. This can be addressed in many different ways.

It's very hard to measure extractor grove expansion even with a good micrometer. The expansion your trying to detect is very small in the 1/10,000 " or less. Getting to the exact same spot is hard and extraction can mark the brass throwing off any good measurement.

 

[AJC1]

Working up in most materials is to the point of accuracy. The bounded limit for most of us mere mortals without test equipment is the book max load. There are signs of overload like primer catering, pierced primers, blown primers and hard extraction but those are emergency stop signals. Your gun may present a stop signal before max listed load and you need to listen. Some people exceed max, but they are taking risks that I cannot quantify.

 

[Remington1911]

I never want to duplicate factory loads. I'm looking for something that is accurate in my gun. Factory loads are a general plinking load which gemerally do not deliver the best accuracy. And the velocity posted on the box is generally not what you get out of your gun. The use of a crony will help you if your goal is to duplicate velocity. Just remember that the factory used canister powder which in most cases is not available to us.

As for a AR, detecting over pressure is a little more involved. Your reading markings on the brass head generally, imprints and primer. A bolt gun is a lot easier to do since you have the feel of lifting the bolt. A lot of AR's are over gassed, which means the brass is generally going forward and stretching the brass badly. This can be addressed in many different ways.

It's very hard to measure extractor grove expansion even with a good micrometer. The expansion your trying to detect is very small in the 1/10,000 " or less. Getting to the exact same spot is hard and extraction can mark the brass throwing off any good measurement.

Same here, I can see no valid point past. Well that trapdoor springfield shot this, or that 1903 in WWI shot that. But past that there is no point.

We all have a friend that thinks the max load is just a suggestion. These are the same people that can't seem to figure out why there gun is all over the place....it is a macho thing I guess.

 

[jmorris]

If you’re wanting to duplicate factory velocities or wanting the flattest shooting round possible, at what point do you stop?

The first one is easy, when you reach the intended velocity, you stop.

To find the flattest possible, you stop once you have tried everything that exists, to rule out any possibility you missed the winner.

 

[AJC1]

The first one is easy, when you reach the intended velocity, you stop.

To find the flattest possible, you stop once you have tried everything that exists, to rule out any possibility you missed the winner.

I cheat and use the powders listed in the manual as producing the highest velocity.

 

[Hugger-4641]

If I happen to find a factory load that is good in my gun, yes I do start out trying to duplicate it's coal and velocity. I very rarely stop there, it depends on what the gun and/or the bullet wants. Some bullets don't want to go slow, some won't perform well if they go too fast.
Most of my intent is for hunting, so I'm not looking for the max velocity or the min velocity, or the smallest group either. I'm usually looking for the max velocity that shoots a sub moa group. If I can do that and keep the POI close to the factory rd, that's just a bonus. It is pretty sweet if you can switch between factory ammo and handloads without re-zeroing.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I have never ran factory ammo though the chronograph. What is listed on the box. Is what their test barrel shows. I have heard they also used a powder blend. That may be a myth?. I look for the most accurate load for my gun. With in the listed data.

 

[jmorris]

I cheat and use the powders listed in the manual as producing the highest velocity.

I can think of a few times where the highest velocity didn’t result in the flattest trajectory but that’s also kind of a “man with one clock always knows what time it is but a man with two is never sure.”

Manuals often don’t agree, others just lump in a bunch together where they decided to stop.




Not to mention the projectile is a fairly large variable in trajectory, it’s not just speed.

 

[AJC1]

I can think of a few times where the highest velocity didn’t result in the flattest trajectory but that’s also kind of a “man with one clock always knows what time it is but a man with two is never sure.”

Manuals often don’t agree, others just lump in a bunch together where they decided to stop.

View attachment 1164848


Not to mention the projectile is a fairly large variable in trajectory, it’s not just speed.

To be fair bc is a thing, and only charge was given as a variable to change. In a lot of cases I want a better than I can afford factory bullet, and I do when I load. As an example I shoot the smk but can't afford 2+ dollar rounds of factory ammo that use that bullet. There may also be berger loaded factory ammo but I've only seen it once in lapua brass 4+ dollars a shot. So ideally select the best bullet with the slowest powder listed for that cartridge. I have seen some to slow but not often. The flattest is normally the lightest bullet to a point where it effects bc then the problem becomes range dependant.

 

[Hugger-4641]

To be fair bc is a thing, and only charge was given as a variable to change. In a lot of cases I want a better than I can afford factory bullet, and I do when I load. As an example I shoot the smk but can't afford 2+ dollar rounds of factory ammo that use that bullet. There may also be berger loaded factory ammo but I've only seen it once in lapua brass 4+ dollars a shot. So ideally select the best bullet with the slowest powder listed for that cartridge. I have seen some to slow but not often. The flattest is normally the lightest bullet to a point where it effects bc then the problem becomes range dependant.

Totally understand about the expensive factory ammo, but even using fired brass its not much cheaper to handload some cartridges like 300wm.
The Eldx's I like to shoot are about $47 for a box of 20 factory rds after tx, about $60/100 after tax for just the projectiles. 1 lb of H1000 or other is about the same , you get about 70rds+- for about $55. So even using my own fired brass its over $1.50/rd, over $2/rd if I use new brass.
So I will buy the factory rds and chronograph them, then duplicate or improve on them, but its not really for the purpose of saving money.

 

[AJC1]

308 is 39 cents 45 grains 4064
50 cents smk, 10c primer case free. That's a buck for a match grade round, factory is 2+ dollars with a free case. I could atomirize that 1.50 lapua case over 15 shots and add another 10c for 1.09 each. This math breaks my heart....

 

[buck460XVR]

I understand many are just looking for an accurate load and velocity is a distant second consideration, but that’s not what I’m talking about. The advice is “Start low and work up slow”. But work up to what? What am I looking for?

If you are using a modern firearm is good condition and are using published loads from a reliable source.....you stop at their max load. This is the safe and intelligent "work up to what?". Going higher is only going to net you a few FPS anyway. In most everything I load, my best accuracy comes long before max, and this is where I stop, as long as the velocities are within the parameters of the distances I will be hunting. I would rather practice with determining distance and how much holdover, than give up an inch or so of MOA.

 

[AJC1]

Your powder choice will have a huge impact on if max is good or not. In 308 there are three nodes and I shoot the middle one with tac. With 4064 45 is max and it's the best. So knowing your gun and the character of you powder maters 44.4 is good with a 150 speer with 4895imr and max is 45 so it's close to max but has a little wiggle. N135 with the same bullet says 46 is max but is to hot with heavy bolt lift at 100 degrees air temp. 44.8 with n135 is perfect. You have to test and set priorities. The nossler guide gives best loads for every powder. If you want max velosity find a powder that uses that bullet weight that is most accurate at max...

 

[MakBaba]

As for a AR, detecting over pressure is a little more involved. Your reading markings on the brass head generally, imprints and primer.

This is kinda what I'm getting at. With a gas gun, reading the brass is mostly what we have.

If you are using a modern firearm is good condition and are using published loads from a reliable source.....you stop at their max load.

But I know you would never suggest just going straight to max. You would start lower, then ease up to look for signs. Would brass swipes be the first reliable indicator?

The first one is easy, when you reach the intended velocity, you stop.

Velocity can be a bit confusing also. The components are always different. Not to mention barrel length used by most manuals are way longer than most. What about my 16"? 11.5"? Powder brings in the biggest variable. I can't expect to get comparable velocities from H322 as I can get from Varget.

Don't misread my questions. Not trying to prove a point or playing "gotcha". Just wondering if most people look for the shiny spots on the brass head, actual burrs, primer flow, or something else.

 

[ms6852]

The advice is “Start low and work up slow”. But work up to what? What am I looking for?

I'm going to state what "I do" and what works for me. I've been reloading for more than 30 years. When I first begin to reload I always made sure of 2 things. One, is that the brass was sized to the minimum or maximum COAL stated on the manual. Second I always started with the minimum loads and never exceeded the maximum loads. What I looked for and worked up for was accuracy and consistency in a 5 shot group at 200 yards, other choose 100 yards and others go beyond 200 yards.

I would start loads at the minimum load stated and worked up in .2 gr increments until I got the tighest and smallest group. After finding the load with the smallest group I would load a couple more loads a little higher and if the groups opened up I would stop with the last load that yielded the best group. My experience showed me over the years that the velocity in my firearms were always in the lower to mid range velocities that shot the smallest 5 shot groups, regardless of caliber, and the higher velocities would shoot bigger groups and spread out. Because of this I have never tried to mimic or duplicate factory velocities. To me it is not feasible since they have different equipment than I do.

I also know that depending on some firearms they do shoot best with higher velocities but has not been the case with mine.

 

[GW Staar]

If you’re wanting to duplicate factory velocities or wanting the flattest shooting round possible, at what point do you stop? What signs are you looking for from an AR fired case? Primer appearance is unreliable. What about ejector smears?
I understand many are just looking for an accurate load and velocity is a distant second consideration, but that’s not what I’m talking about. The advice is “Start low and work up slow”. But work up to what? What am I looking for? I’m guessing very few of us have a blade micrometer to measure case expansion in the extractor groove.

I think you've discovered there's no one answer to any of it. Work up to what, for example.....for me its work up to being able to hit what I want to hit accurately enough that I'm confident that I can bring home meat for the table when I want, or stop an enemy when I have to....to protect my family. For others it may be to be able to score well and win in competition. For you, which it it, or is it maybe both. Not only that, the answer changes for many of us as we put on the years. In another 11 I'll be 85, and I betcha that though I may have the same needs and desires, I will most likely, no longer have the same ability to achieve them. Hopefully, my progenitors will take my place.

My needs now and in the future don't include finding the absolute best load for each pistol and rifle I own. I'm happy when those tools can do what I need them to do.....and 1/2" groups at 300 yards, while amazing, is a competitors goal, not mine.

So the bottom line is what are you? And what's important to you? So what ARE you looking for.........no one can answer that but you.

 

[41 Mag]

Starting to build a load, I will usually rummage through several load manuals looking for the loads which are listed as the highest velocities with the lowest pressure for the bullet weight.

That's however not the ideal thing for semi auto ammo in general. This can lead into higher-end ejection pressures due to the differences in gas ports or action design. I have to admit I am not nearly as familiar with these, as i am liads in bolt rifles.

That said, using a traditional type of powder can still get you into the area. My latest venture was the RMR 69gr loaded over Shooters World Precision Rifle. My goal was to get an accuracy load for informal target and hunting vermin. I had never used this powder, or loaded for this platform so it was basically start at the suggested low end and tweak it up. The rifle has the Wylde chamber as well. This led me to research not only the standard 223 loads but also the NATO as well to get an overall feel of the pressures of both, within an area of the same barrel length of my rifle. Using this I determined my max load somewhat in the middle of the two listed max. I had a pre determined velocity range in my head that I wanted this particular bullet to run at so I set out working up in .2gr increments until I got there. Once there, I adjusted seating depth from the max mag length down in .003" increments. It took 3 tries and the groups would cloverleaf at 100, and hold under 2" at 200.


I'm not saying this will work for every combination or even the same in your rifle or anyone else's but it works well from mine and gets me about 75fps on average above similar weight factory ammo with better groups and my cases aren't dinged up or tossed out into the next county, they usually all land in about a 3' circle off to my right.

 

[FROGO207]

I go about things as follow.
I load for max accuracy first and foremost. I look for a propellant that will fill the case from 80% to slightly compressed. Then I work up a load. I find that each workup has at least two accuracy nodes and usually the lower one is the widest and therefore more forgiving. I will set my propellant weight in the center of that node and test for hot and cold conditions. Note here, I am not ever going over 300 YDS for a shot so velocity is not as important. This approach has worked well for me for the last 35+ years. YMMV

 

[jmorris]

I can't expect to get comparable velocities from H322 as I can get from Varget.

No, you can’t but you can set an attainable goal and reach it.

”best”, “most accurate”, “flattest”, are all qualitative and there is only one single combination that can win the honor.

There are many goals that could be set, that could be achieved with any number of combinations of components, #1 in anything is going to be very specific. Why most of my goals are quantitative vs qualitative.

 

[Thomasss]

But work up to what? What am I looking for?

"Luke, use the force...The Force!!!" You will know what you are looking for when you get there. And when you get there, after a while, you will think "I wonder what would happen if I try this.....". What is a good target load? was my question and eventually I found out. I liked a little heavier load. I can manage 2.9 grains with a little barrel rise as oppose to hand wobble(weak wrists) with a lighter load. But now I'm back to trying 2.7 grains with a Lee solid WC instead of a Speer HBWC. So now I'm back using "The Force" myself. By the way, everyone said the best lead bullet was the one they were using. Ya right.... 148 grain solid Lee WC seems to work for me. But don't worry for I have darn near every WC and SWC mold there is for .357. Ok, Obie-Wan Kenobi.

 

[41 Mag]

I've chased tha dragon in the past, and found it was usually just a windmill. In my more mature years I have looked back on my past data and while I did have high octane loads which performed well, the overall majority of those that were the absolute best, ran in the 2800-2900fps range across all the calibers. I do have some accurate hotrods like my standard 25-06 and the Ackley version which hit the lower end of the 3000+fps range but that is about it.

I know my rifles and drops for the loads well enough that even when I reach out to the nether regions of my pastures for a feral hog or coyote, there is usually a resounding whop on the other end. The nice thing about having most of them in the same velocity range is that the average trajectory for the bullets used is close enough that the hold over is about the same for all.

My grandsons are hunters, but only one is really interested in loading. He is slowly learning that there is a reason I do things the way I do, but like most of us at his age, he still believes there are things untested and that can be improved upon. One thing he IS certain of, when Paw drops the hammer, there is usually gonna be work to be done a short time afterward. I'd rather hit slow than miss fast any day...

 

[Gone Hiking]

I load for precision and measure that by groups on paper and their by their velocities across the chrono. Usually the tightest velocities also have the tightest groups on paper. Call it a 2-step verification process. Often, as you record the results, you'll find two or three loads that have the best precision. If the precision is the same with two or three different loads, I choose the one that provides the highest velocity for the best trajectory and/or impact energy. I usually verify this with 2 more range trips where I duplicate the best loads ranges and test them again. If the results are consistent, I have my load.

I should add that I make my initial test loads all the way up to max, and shoot them from low to high. If the loads are beginning to show pressure signs, I stop the test there and disassemble the hot loads when I get home. I've found that quite often, however, the best precision (or least one of two or three best loads) occurs right around max.

 

[film495]

you work up to accuracy, and/or up to a velocity you're looking for.

 

[AK Hunter]

Velocity is not accuracy. Just because it's the fastest bullet or flattest trajectory doesn't mean it keeps the best pattern. I keep the speed but try to see what holds the best group out of my gun.