Where Do The Democratic Candidates Stand On Gun Control?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Speedo66

Member
Joined
May 31, 2008
Messages
11,076
Location
Flatlandistan
This article lists the official line of several candidates as to what they would push if they were president.

Joe B. has flip-flopped a bit, some others have become more intense antis in response to the latest incidents.

Confiscation, buy backs, registration, federal licensing, mandatory background checks, etc. are all in the mix.

Here's the article: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/06/us/politics/gun-control-Democrats-2020.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage
 
Both parties have separated and designed ideological litmus tests for purity. It is driven in part by the extremists of both parties tending to dominate the primary process.
Both parties' fringes are equally prone to have a personal liberty that they want to infringe upon. What else is new? Can that cycle be broken?

Do we have any commentary beside complaining, by the way? Yeah, they are against guns in varying degrees - specific comments?
 
If you read the fine print of their proposals, all of the Democratic candidates are for an "assault weapon ban," but all of them (except Swalwell, who dropped out) would allow for some form of grandfathering. Considering the huge number of "assault weapons" in existence (including millions more after the expiration of the 1994-2004 ban), grandfathering pretty much nullifies the whole idea of a ban. That's why I'm not worried about a federal AWB. I am worried about a state-level AWB, like the one proposed by Virginia Governor Northam. That would have no grandfathering, and would apply to over-10-round magazines as well.

One particularly silly proposal is that of Kamala Harris. She would ban imports of "assault weapons." Practically none are imported, particularly in view of 18 U.S.C. sec. 922(r).
 
There seems to be a lot of preaching to the choir and then they all mumble back in agreement. We HAVE TO step it up as a group to stop this soon or there will no longer be areason to do it IMHO. 2020 will make or break the 2A and we need to assure that it is over the top to shut down the opposition for good. Otherwise all we do is hang on by our fingers over the precipice and react at each election cycle as best we can. I think it is time to stop being nice to the other side and go on the offensive now. In termd of fight or flight our collective backs are against the wall and the running is over.
 
I think it is time to stop being nice to the other side and go on the offensive now. In terms of fight or flight our collective backs are against the wall and the running is over.

Ok, how?

I am going to play Devil's Advocate as I am frustrated with calls for action that are devoid of strategy and tactics. An election cycle is coming where folks not committed to the RKBA will see the danger of MSRs, EBRs, MSSAs, assault weapons, assault rifles, - anything you want to call them. They fundamentally want to be safe at the mall, place of worship, school, etc. They are not really interested in Socialism, they don't want to control you (common cliches).

So the gun bans have appeal. Make the case why a 19 year old should have the ability to purchase a basically short barrel rifle and equip it with a 100 round magazine?

The ball is in your court for how we go on the offensive to win legally. Choir arguments and cliches are not useful to a person fearing for their safety.
 
Unfortunately, if you look at it from their point of view, the only answer is complete gun confiscation. There is no real test for who is going to go off and do a mass shooting.

People who appear perfectly normal can do something like that with no advance warning. Red laws won’t work, background checks won’t work, registration won’t work.

How to get every gun into gov’t hands would not be easy, obviously. But they’d like to set the ball in motion.

Personally, every time something like an El Paso or a Dayton happens, I’m so disgusted I try and come up with a fair solution in my head. And get nowhere.
 
Personally, every time something like an El Paso or a Dayton happens, I’m so disgusted I try and come up with a fair solution in my head. And get nowhere.
The honest truth is that there is no solution. There are just too many guns for it to be even remotely possible to have a "gun free" America.

Given that basic fact, all the arguing about guns is just nibbling at the margins. Each side tries to score points with its own adherents. That's all this is.
 
It is all about votes and not about anti guns. The anti gun crowd got started and snowballed through out the Democrat party. CNN the largest propaganda machine was constantly bashing any police shooting, bashing the police, and a school shooting became a way that the Dems could use as a symbol for their party. Bad guys are Pro the second amendment, the good guys against. Then a snowball effect became zo big that even a Democrat ardent lover of shooting and hunting dare not go against the grain. CNN for instance will skillfully use the 2nd amendment over and over and over to bash Tump and the Republican Party. Pro 2A are all racist, the President is racist, and Republicans are just bad guys that do not care about mass shooting.
In some ways you have to respect CNN. They obviously have studied how to use Propagada as a very effective tool.
So any Dem politician would be signing his career off to have anything to do with pro 2A and in many cases supporting the police.
 
No one seems to care about all the “gun crime” taking place that is not a mass shooting.

Makes me wonder if other factors such as demographics of those involved plays a part.

I’m not using this example as any sort of reasoning for or against any more laws because it is just misdirection. I am curious as to why they are so adamant about the mass shootings and not the day to day crimes that cause so much more loss of life. Ask a lefty and they will tell you it’s all about saving one more life which I interpret as “the greatest good for the greatest number”. We know utilitarianism doesn’t work but weirdly that is what so called “social justice” sounds a lot like. But no one seems to want to bother with the city crime and that loss of life.

Hopefully I stayed OT.
 
Unfortunately, if you look at it from their point of view, the only answer is complete gun confiscation. There is no real test for who is going to go off and do a mass shooting.

People who appear perfectly normal can do something like that with no advance warning. Red laws won’t work, background checks won’t work, registration won’t work.

How to get every gun into gov’t hands would not be easy, obviously. But they’d like to set the ball in motion.

Personally, every time something like an El Paso or a Dayton happens, I’m so disgusted I try and come up with a fair solution in my head. And get nowhere.
Until this country addresses the very complex reasons as to the CAUSES, nothing will get done. Whether you blame illegal drugs, broken families, violent video games, poverty, lack of education, the "anything goes" mentality without repercussions, and on and on, unless the causes are determined so a solution can be found, nothing changes. Why do these episodes make national news, but the 48 black folks shot over the weekend in Chicago get crickets - even from Jackson and Sharpton? Politicians only want one solution - their reelection.
 
People who appear perfectly normal can do something like that with no advance warning.

I don't necessarily agree with this specific statement. I believe there are always warning signs, but that not everyone is equipped to see, understand, and act upon them. The problems seem to be in young males, either severely troubled by early life's common challenges, or radicalized into violence. Either way these young men are vulnerable to dangerous persuasion. This is what is to be fought, and a case made against bans in that light.

As to the candidates' stands, by degrees they are all opposed to the 2A, because most of their constituency feel the same way. In the face of repeated incidents the same problem applies here as it does for other litmus test issues - logic loses to emotion, especially when blood is involved.

Personally, I think compulsory service, either civilian or military, would be of great benefit to our nation. It think the need to belong and learning constructive behavior and discipline would slow or maybe stop this.
 
There are folks discussing the gun crimes outside of the massacres. They are usually minority folks who are angry that so much is made of the rampage incident as compared to the overall gun crime. However, the solution for the latter gun crimes comes from difficult socio-economic policies that the country is not willing or able to pursue or discuss. It is better to focus on the vivid events. A vast number of gun deaths come from suicide. Anybody up for significant mental health funding? Obamacare, Socialized Medicine, Keep Your Crappy Private Plan (with minimal mental health coverage).

Implement compulsory service:

1. How much that does that cost?
2. How to avoid the Viet Nam era BS of excuses. Bone spurs and the rich and famous kid gets excused. No way, the Ivankas or Chelseas are going into the armed forces or spend two years digging forest fire prevention ditches. Maybe they will get some upscale gig. The poor folks will do the work and heavy lifting.
 
I will also say that for the common public, economic driven violent crime does not bring the kind of fear as does the killings at the root of this discussion. Huge difference in impact on the psyche.
 
That is correct as they don't see themselves as targeted in such crime.
 
Guys without a specific plan your just ranting and in danger of getting this shut down

The Democratic nonsense will only be stopped by

Voting - and getting all your friends and family to vote for

Contacting your local and federal officials and having your friended fact them with our views

Joining and donate to your local, state and national pro gun Organizations

Engaging the drama llamas on social media with facts and logic not feels.
I

Email the media and call them on their bias.Or better contact their sponsors and complain

Get the idea.
 
Last edited:
I am curious as to why they are so adamant about the mass shootings and not the day to day crimes that cause so much more loss of life.
Because mass shootings affect middle class, suburban people. Nobody cares what goes on in the ghettoes or the trailer parks. Life is considered to be cheap there.
 
They fundamentally want to be safe at the mall, place of worship, school, etc.



That's the thing, no one ever told these kids that it's a dangerous world out there and S happens. It's not possible to have a safe bubble everywhere you go.

I think a combination of being coddled too much as well as the MSM is to blame for this mindset.
 
The Democratic nonsense will only be stopped by

Voting - and getting all your friends and family to vote for.
Normally, I'd agree with you. Voting is everything.

"The people who cast votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything." -- Joseph Stalin

The integrity of U.S. elections is critical. Both real integrity and public confidence in the election process. That's why investigations into Russia's ability to control the President are essential.
 
Each side tries to score points with its own adherents. That's all this is.
Not when they introduce legislation to ban this or that gun, some of them are very serious about banning weapons.

A good point has been made and somehow folks leaning towards voting for Democrats have to figure out who is mostly talk and who is serious, so hopefully they can vote for things they want without getting another anti vote on every anti gun piece of legislation that comes along, and even worse, a politician who will push new anti legislation.

It's a tough time to be a Democrat and pro gun. The Democratic leadership is going in a direction a lot of Liberals don't like. Hopefully voters can fix it.

And Conservatives, don't forget some of the Republicans need to be gone and some don't need to win.

If you are serious about the people remaining free to own arms, vote carefully.
Because mass shootings affect middle class, suburban people. Nobody cares what goes on in the ghettoes or the trailer parks. Life is considered to be cheap there.
Speak for yourself there, but sadly true in many cases.

Unfortunately their are a lot of politicians, and especially anti politicians, who don't seem to care about poor people killing each other in the ghetto vs a crazy person killing innocent people. We know why, it doesn't fit the agenda of stirring up emotional support for gun control. Sad, but true.
 
Ok, how?

I am going to play Devil's Advocate as I am frustrated with calls for action that are devoid of strategy and tactics. An election cycle is coming where folks not committed to the RKBA will see the danger of MSRs, EBRs, MSSAs, assault weapons, assault rifles, - anything you want to call them. They fundamentally want to be safe at the mall, place of worship, school, etc. They are not really interested in Socialism, they don't want to control you (common cliches).

So the gun bans have appeal. Make the case why a 19 year old should have the ability to purchase a basically short barrel rifle and equip it with a 100 round magazine?

The ball is in your court for how we go on the offensive to win legally. Choir arguments and cliches are not useful to a person fearing for their safety.


To help the discussion along, I am posting Gallup's polling work on guns and many of these track responses over time. https://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx

Like ATLDave, my professional opinion is not the same as my personal preferences. These are simply issues that you can bat back and forth if you like or dispute my take on it.

Part of the issue is that Democrats as their rural roots shrivel are more influenced by their new urban and minority constituencies which are more anti-gun than the general population. In reverse, as the silk stocking Republicans have largely vanished or became Democrats, the Republican base of rural and outer suburb white voters has become more pro-gun. The battlegrounds are the suburbs with folks that are less ideological and more policy outcome oriented.

The problem is what plays for votes in the Democratic presidential primaries may not be helpful in the General Election as each D. candidate has a reason to push the limit on gun control because party activists that vote in primaries and volunteer for campaigns are overwhelmingly in support of radical action. Officeholders are caught in the crossfire in the House and Senate because they have to put together constituencies in states that may not reflect whatever the national mood in deep blue states is. Right now divided control of the House and Senate along with a President allows each party to essentially virtue signal without much cost. Regardless of the rather slanted media agenda, voters that are single issue on gun rights or gun bans are rather scarce--instead it is simply one additional item to consider. Economy and war and peace/terrorism are always at the top of the list along with occasional spikes in a short term crisis of some sort with lower numbers reflecting other issues. Immigration for example is one such thing that ebbs and flows with some historical regularity. Misconduct in government is another.

Right now, despite the hysteria based on today's news amplified by party politics, the gun control battle resembles WWI trench warfare with each side coming up with gambits that work in a small theater but these offensive motions peter out nationally.

The gun rights side has successfully pushed CCW for personal safety and Americans by and large refuse to ban handguns. Witness the near misses in the NFA act which originally included handguns, the GCA of 1968 driven by handgun assassinations, and the majority American support in the late 50's and 60's for a total ban on handguns. Some minor successes include FOPA and preventing the AWB from coming back into effect. There is also accordance that there is an individual right to own firearms codified in the Constitution which tends to legitimate it in the view of the tepid.

The gun banning side, thwarted at the national level, has turned to state offenses and ratcheted up ridiculous laws that do nothing nor prevent gun tragedies as the Gilroy and other massacres in California including Fresno and the bar near San Diego indicate. This sort of thing works when the blues dominate state politics but increasingly frustrate national action because the failure of these can be fairly demonstrated in the more purple and red regions. Thus, the gun banners have had to cede temporary defeat on handgun bans and focus instead on magazine limits and the new boogeyman of "assault rifles" often accompanied by the high powered assault rifles. Here, because semi auto AR and AK pattern rifles are more an offensive weapon due to range, cost, ammo availability, and ease of shooting by prospective mass murderers.

Aside from the Las Vegas rabid dog murderer, few, if any, of these mass shooters are a member of the gun culture and if these firearms were not available or expensive to own, would turn to handguns, shotguns, etc. or other things of mass mayhem. This has been true of shootings in other countries (aside from terrorism) which have actually occurred in some of the countries at higher rates than the U.S.

But, it has been the wedge that gun banners want with the UBC in their minds providing a nice gun registry to grab guns and they have persuaded quite a few people unfamiliar with the realities of gun buying and selling to go along. A second is an AWB and capacity restrictions on magazines along with raising the age to 21 on long arms. Capacity restrictions appear reasonable to a lot of folks, including firearm owners, with the idea that you only need a couple of bullets to stop a threat. The same with 21 for long arms as we restrict drinking for example to those 21 and over.

The UBC's have also been sold on the near mythical evil gun show loophole when in essence UBC's would probably affect only a few, if any, of the mass murderers. The illegal gun market of unscrupulous sellers, a large supply of pre-existing firearms with no real way to trace their ownership, and willing buyers already exists. In addition, many of these individual mass murderers would have and have passed background checks even some that should not have (TX Church murderer and VaTech murderer) and straw buyers proliferate.

My guess is that the 21 year old requirement might actually have a slightly greater effect on reducing these killings as a disproportionate number of 18-21 males have been these type murderers and many may lack the connections in order to acquire firearms illegally. Creepy loners might have an issue with getting straw buyers due to their isolation and no connections with the underground urban illegal firearm network. I have no strong opinions either way as insufficient evidence exists, but laws restricting minors from firearm purchases probably have prevented some high school shootings. Whether this can be extrapolated to 18-21 yr olds is debateable.

Magazine capacity is one of those things where you have to balance the fact that very large capacity mags might actually decrease the toll as these are prone to jamming (100 mags etc. are not the epitome of reliability) but due to the fact that many of these shooters might not be as proficient at reloading might actually have a slight effect on reducing death tolls. Gunny's thread on guns criminals use and his note that higher caps and the number of shots has increased among criminals lend some credence to this. You can shoot an SKS using stripper clips or an M1 Rifle pretty doggone fast if you are trained, the typical mass murderer is not that person as most demonstrate the profile of life's losers. Trainers see enough problems on reloading, so forcing a mass murderer to do more reloads under pressure could theoretically reduce mayhem. This is one of those things that a firearms trainer could address more than I could based on their experiences.

Now we get to red flag laws--as a principle, we the gun community should not want firearms in the hands of criminals, chronic drug or alcohol abusers, or those committed to institutions with severe mental illness. There is a reason that each are lawfully banned from owning or possessing firearms and while there are a few absolutists that believe than any restriction is unconstitutional, they are unlikely to get much support from the general population, politicians, nor the courts. The great difficulty is how to restore rights to these populations without causing additional violence as each of these may not be a permanent condition so the justice may not be served with the current life long banning. Currently, pardons can restore most rights but those are rare and hard to get. Maybe that is sufficient but there is no current similar system to those long ago that were treated for mental illness involuntarily and are now well. Perhaps that is something we should include with pardons or some other restoration of rights process.

We now get to the hard cases where there is perhaps a long record of anti-social behavior (violent threats, drug abuse and possession, stalking, domestic abuse/violence allegations, or even dementia) that might have led to arrests but later either pled down cases, diverted to the juvenile justice system, or simply ignored/mishandled by law enforcement/the courts/the schools/ or the mental health systems. Odds are that most of these individuals will not commit mass mayhem but obviously to think and talk about doing such things on an extended basis significantly raises the risk that they will do something. Thus, is it fair to in effect, have a pre-crime panel decide that by background that this sort of individual might not be a good custodian of firearms either temporarily and/or permanently. This version of the movie Minority Report from Phillip Dick's short story, dealt with such issues albeit with mental powers not available to current humans.

Like involuntary committals for treatment of mental illness, we should rightfully worry about the degree of due process, how to reverse unjust or unfounded decisions, and what compensation should be available for recompense of errors. Who should pay is another issue. Some will take the viewpoint that our rights are so important that if some people die as that consequence, that is the price of freedom and will oppose these laws outright. Others might argue it depends on the specific legislation proposed as we should balance individual rights with public safety. Gun banners will basically propose broad based seizures of private firearms by government as a good precedent and some believe that any person with a gun is a prospective mass murderer.

A red flag law might have worked in the cases of the cases of VA Tech, the CO Movie, the FL high school, and perhaps the Fresno situation. Each of these situations had multiple people that reported fixations by the perpetrators on death, killing, violence, etc. A similar situation exists with domestic violence protective orders, some of these will work and some will not in preventing future domestic incidents depending on a whole host of factors. It is possible that a lot of false positives might be generated by new red flag laws which we already have some experience with the classic MWAG 911 or worse SWATTING type reports that the police are obligated to investigate but most of these are quickly resolved by minimal investigation by police to screen out the real threats from the false ones. So how do you craft such a law to minimize false positives but maximize the protection to society from potential mass murderers by denying them quick and easy tools to commit mass mayhem?

If we do such a thing, I would strongly advise following the involuntary commitment model of mental health where extensive due process is available through the process including state provided lawyers, appellate review, cross examination of witnesses, sworn testimony, making false statements to such a body as legally liable for the individual with civil and criminal penalties, no ex parte hearings, etc. Orders should preferably be from state general trial court judges and not the lower magistrate, justice of the peace, etc. level that so often rubberstamp orders.

State recompense for damages to property, legal representation, etc. should be provided if the state loses its case on appeal to a circuit judge. Washington State for example has this provision in case self defense is successfully invoked. The incentive to minimize false positives is that the state should have to pay if these are unfounded allegations and individuals who make false reports for malicious reasons should face civil and criminal penalties. This would tend to focus the attention of the enforcement apparatus to legitimate cases only at the risk that some might slip through.

I am personally leaving out the whole AWB thing as it depending on the particulars such as whether it tries to ban all semi-automatics that is probably a bridge too far for success or whether it has the rather stupid California version of featureless abominations which could conceivably pass in some way. The least objectionable would be the stupid former federal AWB but still pointless in stopping mass mayhem. The whole registry issue could come up as Alexander A suggests but anti-gunners might be wary of such as it might cause the machine gun registry to be reopened as a poison pill amendment. A simple ban is easier to sell politically.

FWIW, detractors of DJT are correct to notice that he is ambivalent at best on the 2A issue because of background and NYC influences which is no different than GWB, or GHWB in action. GWB supported in 2000 and later reinstating the AWB if Congress sent it to him. His father tore up his NRA card and instituted bans based on the sporting purposes language of gun laws. But, Trump's linkage of the crisis at the borders with the gun control legislation more or less makes it a poison pill for any "bipartisan" agreement to come together because Democrats for identity politics reasons cannot agree to any border enforcement at the current time.


Thus, we may very well see a bit of failure theater where each side gets to credit claim if that darn other party had not obstructed their virtuous and righteous policy proposals. Doing nothing in particular other than windbaggery allows playing to the peanut gallery and thrilling the faithful but not risking doing anything that would upset the status quo. I would suspect that both this would result probably serves the interests of both parties at present.

The Republicans would come up with some policies and linkages that the Dems cannot agree to and the Dems would do the same. Resolution same old, same old, with a few electoral losses in 2020 swinging on it. Democrats want gun control on the agenda because they believe it helps them, more Republicans want border security issues highlighted because they believe it helps them. Both issues could be perilous if either side lets their extremists push things. Polling indicates that more or less that both of the above assertions about agenda priorities are correct regarding the mushy middle.

This linkage coupled with the overreach of refusing presidential visits, the overheated rhetoric, fundraising, etc. by the Dems, especially the presidential candidates, also makes it more unlikely to come to a deal over it as time passes. McConnell's refusal to reconvene the Senate during the recess more or less means that Congress stays on recess for weeks yet to go and by then other events may happen during that time changing the national conversation. Only the future can tell.
 
Last edited:
One step further to the left and Joe Stalin will be there to welcome them.

A finer group of "Progressive" sycophants would be impossible to find.

Gun control means all guns confiscated and smeltered down, other than their control group of secret police and your ,"normal", standing officers and henchmen.

Just 1938 and The Great Terror of the USSR revisited.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top