Where is quality US innvation in semiauto handguns (other than 1911)

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AirPower

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Looking at the modern semiauto available, HK, Beretta, Walther, Glock, Styre, CZ.....what happened to US innovation in semiautos?

There is of course the variations on 1911, but are there any other good auto designs besides them? Ruger has an okay product line but they were not well ergonomically designed and appear dated. S&W had a traditional line of semis, but is now essentially doing copy cat stuff. How come there's no innovation in handguns by US firms?
 
Kahr would be considered innovative IMHO.

But, I agree, not much out there. Most of the American companies except for Ruger have changed owners several times, poor cash flow, etc, etc.
 
Seecamp. Maybe even the Kel-tec. Don't tell no one I said that though, might be considered hairesy in some of the circles I swim in.
 
"perfection is hard to improve upon, that is why we stopped with the 1911. everything else is just a theory."

Is that why so many of them need work right out of the box to be reliable? I guess that I'll just have to deal with my "un-perfect" pistols that worked when I bought them.:D

I too have wondered why there dosen't seem to be anything really new coming from a US manufacturer. Glock and Sig both have facilities in the US, but I wouldn't say that they are US mfgs. Some of the new polymer Rugers look promising. Still feel like a brick, but they look promising. Haven't shot one so I can only comment on their looks and feel. I do agree with 45Auto, the Kahrs are pretty innovative.

Calhoun
 
Well,Colt also produced arguably the best DA auto in the world some years back.You'll remember it as the All American 2000.

I don't recall why it's no longer sold.



:neener:
 
STI/SVI double stack poly guns. Raceguns of all types, may not be some folks cup of tea, but you can't deny those suckers are advanced.

Kahr.

Kel-Tec.

S&W was a pioneer for a long time.

Ruger is a pioneer in casting.

On the other hand, the Sig, Glock, Beretta, aren't really that much more advanced, just different.
 
Because innovative does not necessarily = effective or desirable.

A striker fired revolver would be innovative but I can't see it as an improvement. A pistol with a side-feeding magazine would again be innovative but limited in application, etc . . .

Quite frankly, most of the good ideas have been done and used. Except for lawyerizing there haven't been a lot of significant changes to the way pistols have been designed in a number of years. The most inovative pistol in recent times has been the Glock, and that was a decade ago.

For the most part firearms development has dropped into incrimental improvements in materials and processes. Once portable high-energy power sources become available. Then we'll start seeing some real innovation :)

Magnetic Liniar Accellerator anyone ;)
 
I have to disagree with the colt 2000 as "the best" DAO.

The reason colt no longer makes it, ..... it was awfull, unreliable, and unrefined.

Personally, working in a gun shop for over 3 years, I have had many experiences with the colt 2000.

Every one we sold at the shop had problems, some of which colt could not even work out. It was a rare thing for one to work properly.

The problem, as I remember it, was due to the fact that colt rushed into production with the firearm before complietly working out all the different innovations so that they would function together properly.

This gun was to be the base for the colt "Smart Gun", but it proved to be a "Not so smart" gun.

The colt 2000 had a chance to be the ultimate DAO, but was rushed into production and cost it in the long run.
 
Maybe some folks are afraid to mention them,
but the the Kel-Tec P3AT's are impressive feats of
design innovation and enginering.

As far as fullsize combat/defense pistols are concerned,
the Browning-Colt 1911 design has spoiled America.
I mean, it's almost as if nobody even bothers to try topping it,
because it's already yours. The motivation seems mostly in
minor variations on the 1911 design. Even the amazing
NCG gas gun remains an homage to the 1911.

The Europeans on the other hand, have tried hard to have
their own world-beater, and now own the forefront of
fullsize magazine-pistol design.

America hasn't given up its leadership in revolver pistols.
Don't lose it.
 
I have to disagree with the colt 2000 as "the best" DAO
Click to expand...


I put this :neener: on my post to indicate a sarcastic,smart alec post.

It wasn't my intention to be taken seriously.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled program.

:D
 
I'm in awe of most of the firearms I pick up, they are very well designed and manufactured. Most of them work for decades with absolutely minimal maintenance.

The M1911? The Luger was dramatically more popular among military forces and there is even a Luger in .45 that was tested by the U.S. The M1911 has little following outside the U.S. The Hi Power was far more widely adopted and copied, and was the true father of all the Super-9's.

What innovation has CZ brought to the market? The CZ75 was a repackaging of many common design features. My wartime production Remington Rand M1911 is better made than my CZ 85 Combat - no contest.

Beretta and Walther were innovators since the time of Browning or before. And Glock may have had more impact than anyone since Browning.

But S&W, Kahr, and Ruger all have exceptional manufacturing capabilities in forging, machining, and investment casting respectively. I have a garden variety S&W 3913 and it is beautifully made. And lets not forget Remington.
 
this is a good question. I've seen it addressed elsewhere though, with some interesting theories. Most of them revolve around the fact that the vast majority of innovation is done by individuals and not firearms companies. All the good designs were done by individuals (and you know their names) a long, long time ago.

The answer is in the correlation of gun laws, wars and economics.

In a nutshell, the regulatory environment is such that it's not practical for innovative individuals to design new weapons.

And let's not kid ourselves, we've lost almost a century of small arms innovation because of these laws, no matter how romantically involved we are with the 1911.

iirc, the novel _Unintended Consequences_ discusses this in some detail. (it's a good read though either way)

seriously, you guys don't know what you're missing. consider the innovations in electronics, telephony, transportation, money and banking, agriculture, etc since 1911. there's only one reason why my cell phone/PDA device doesn't also have a gyroscopically stabilized mini-machingun that shoots gps guided-bullets on verbal command, instead of a crappy digital camera. ok, maybe 2 reasons :)
 
One problem plaguing U.S. companies is the need to pay out huge amounts to insurance companies or else set aside large amounts to self insure. The reason, of course, is the spate of liability law suits brought by the rich anti-gun organizations, plus the eagerness of trial lawyers like John Edwards to both eliminate guns and enrich themselves at the same time.

In addition, the larger American companies have been able to sell all the guns they can make, so there is no need to fund a lot of R&D in search of a better product. As to the 1911 type, those makers cater primarily to the "big boys' toys" market. There have been well-publicized police and military sales, but for the most part people whose necks depend on their guns are not buying heavy, single action, high recoil pistols when H&K, Sig, Beretta and others put out extremely reliable and more manageable products.

Jim
 
Let's not overstate the 'innovation' of many Euro manufacturers. Look at the Beretta 92 as an example, and see countless other predecessor pistols with similar design ideas from countless other manufacturers dating back to well before WWII. Glock is riding a design that is almost thirty years old. CZ? Their primary pistol design is almost thirty years old. HK hasn't had a novel idea (as opposed to a derivative idea) since the P7, while FN and Sig spend most of their time re-hashing the same designs or trying to build crew-served SOCOM weapons. ;)

I suspect that you're looking at the US's 'old guard' and wondering why they can't seem to come up with much new and compelling. At least ya gotta give Ruger and even S&W props for trying on occasion. Colt, OTOH, just can't seem to figure out WHAT they wanna be when they grow up (but since I'm a 1911-kinda-guy, I can live with that)....

Kahr and KelTec are probably more innovative than Beretta or HK or SIG these days. At least their innovation lies in trying to make a better pistol for carrying and shooting, not in simply trying to find cheaper ways to make the same thing.
 
No one has mentioned Ruger.

Politics aside, has anyone noticed any innovation or creative engineering concepts in the Ruger P series pistols. I'm speaking of function here, not aesthetics.
 
US innovations

Guess you haven't heard of the Springfield XD series of pistols yet. Give me a 1911 any day and for you guys that can't live with the recoil of the 45 go out and try a 1911 in 38 super. Hehehe guess you never shot a 44 mag then.
 
But, IIRC, the Springfield XD is just a repackaged HS2000, which is a...Croatian design? Someone here will know.

Point is, you can't point to the XD as American innovation, as the design is not American.

FWIW, I think Black Snowman has the general idea. We've reached the point in handgun design where we are basically just refining and adjusting the same basic concepts. We're producing evolution, not revolution. And, even when something truly innovative comes along (say, Glock and polymer frames), it cannot really be said to do its job all that much better than older designs, even by the fanboys.

Eventually, we will have another paradigm shift, and then it is off to the races in design again.

Mike
 
Who's the guy with the "coil gun" pistol he designed? A higher powered battery, and it goes from a BB shooter to a serious slug thrower....nothing like a hand held rail gun.....

My CZ75 PO1 is better built than any WWII issue 1911 I have ever seen...sorry VG. The ones on my ship were rattling castanets who might get close enough to scare the target.....
Yes, the basic design of the CZ is 29 years old. The basic design for the M2 BMG is how old? How old is the basic design for your shotgun/rifle? I'll trust my chosen design, (updated last year), against a lot of newer and older designs.
I think the last major innovation was the incredible ill-fated and woefully inaccurate Gyrojet rocket pistol.
 
US innovations

Guess you haven't heard of the Springfield XD series of pistols yet. Give me a 1911 any day and for you guys that can't live with the recoil of the 45 go out and try a 1911 in 38 super. Hehehe guess you never shot a 44 mag then.
 
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