Where is the Bowie Knife?

[Barry the Bear]

First I'd like to say if I got any of my history wrong please correct me. If memory serves Jim Bowie had two knives he used that would give rise to his legend, one was used in the Vidalia sandbar duel and if correct many historians say he gave the knife to a popular actor of the day, but I want to know where if ever found the one that he used at the Alamo. It would seem to me that he was fairly well known in his day and maybe just maybe the blade may have been taken by a Mexican soldier into Mexico or even into the battle of San jacinto and no Texian ever found it again. Anyone have any theories? Or maybe it's still there at the Alamo burried beneath time.

 

[JShirley]

No one knows. Sorry, it's that simple. We can't even even give any theories, because a theory has to have supporting evidence.

 

[Ron James]

To the Mexicans Jim Bowie was a nobody, just another trouble making gringo. Some Mexican soldier picked it and used it to kill pigs until it rusted away. And it is not known if he even had any large knife with him that bad hair day. Note, Jim Bowie was not well known until years after the Alamo when a pulp fiction writer start writing dime novels about him. Where is Davie Crockett's rifle, old Betsy, Being an ex congressman he was much better known Even by Santa Anna, of course that didn't stop him from going on the burn pile.

 

[Barry the Bear]

As far as is known Jim Bowie was a fairly known guy, maybe not the legend that Crockett was but certainly not a nobody.

 

[Slamfire]

The best book on chasing down what the original Bowie knife might have been was Flayderman's book : The Bowie Knife http://www.amazon.com/The-Bowie-Knife-Unsheathing-American/dp/193146412X

Flayerman finds a newpaper description from Bowie's brother, Resin Bowie, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rezin_Bowie about the knife he, Resin, made. Unfortunately no picture was provided. So what the basic knife looked like, has been an article of contention for all, and a matter of faith depending on the claim. I have read a number of claims for what is the "original" knife, all of them based on a oral history, and all of them conflict. Knife collectors might as well be looking for a piece of the original cross. In medieval times there were so many relic pieces of the original cross that a reasonable sized house, with fences, could have been built out of them. Such is the situation for the "original" Bowie knife.

Flayderman's book has pictures of many different styles of Bowie knives. He does an outstanding job of chasing legends, showing Bowie knife trends, which changed dramatically depending on the period and geographical location. I think the early Bowie knives fit the description found here:
https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/lnb01

One of the earliest known Bowie patterns is the Graveley and Wreaks. A very interesting story with pictures is here: http://www.antiquebowies.com/antiqueBowies/earlySheffield/Graveley/graveleyAndWreaks.htm



Since the New Yorkers who commissioned the manufacture of these English knives probably never met Jim Bowie, whatever knife pattern they came up with, was based on their and their manufacturer's imaginations. Still, the Garveley and Wreaks is one of the earliest known "Bowie" knives because of ads they placed.

Considering that steel was very expensive in the 1830's, I am very certain that some Mexican Soldier picked up Jim Bowies knife and took it with him, either for use, or for sale.

 

[Ron James]

He was known in the local area as a land owner ( his wife was Mexican, he as an American, couldn't own the land ), but well known nationally? , no, there was no national wide web network at that time, a few newspaper articles that were of local interest. but well known out side of his own little pond, no, sorry about that. It was well after the Alamo that his legend and knife be came well known, and most of what was known was made up by pulp writers. How often do you read about his land swindles?? Alas, very little is known abut his demise, second hand stories and such. He was sick in bed, He had asked for a pistol ( it is believed ) but was he able to use it or any other weapon before they used him for bayonet practice? no one really knows. There is now a story that old Davie died after the fight, he and several others surrendered after a promises of not being killed, but Santa Anna did a thumbs down and had him bayoneted. True? don't know, wasn't there. BTW, the Bowie knife we see to ay is not the knife that he made famous, the original knife was descried as nothing more than a overly large butcher knife, thin steel hammered out on an anvil by a blacksmith. The odds are very long that it was even tempered properly , but as in Liberty Valance " when the legend becomes fact, print the legend ".

 

[Bexar]

James Bowie...was hardly a nobody. He was an entrepreneur and speculator with the ups and downs of those enterprises...but hardly a nobody. He gave his life for Texas and many men followed with him so he remains and always will be a Texas hero and legend.

https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/fbo45

Bowie was married into Mexican aristocracy...worked directly with Stephen F. Austin...Sam Houston and was involved in several military campaigns. After the Battle of the Alamo Santa Anna asked to see his body along with Travis' and Crockett's. When an emperor of Mexico wants to make sure you're dead and a mayor is asked to identify your body...you're hardly a nobody.

Ibid. On March 6 the Mexicans attacked before dawn, and all 188 defenders of the Alamo perished. Santa Anna asked to see the corpses of Bowie, Travis, and Crockett, and Bexar mayor Francisco Ruiz identified the bodies. Bowie lay on his cot in a room on the south side. He had been shot several times in the head. During his lifetime he had been described by his old friend Caiaphas K. Ham as "a clever, polite gentleman...attentive to the ladies on all occasions...a true, constant, and generous friend...a foe no one dared to undervalue and many feared." Slave trader, gambler, land speculator, dreamer, and hero, James Bowie in death became immortal in the annals of Texas history. See also ALAMO, BATTLE OF THE.

 

[hso]

There is no one Bowie knife. That's kind of a thing of myth that has sprung up. Jim Bowie became famous after the Sandbar fight. The same sorts of questions about the knife he used popped up like we see questions about what gun was used today when a spectacular shot is made under fire. Bowie and the knife became romanticised and as he parlayed his fame into position it became something of a calling card for him.

As such there were several "Bowie knives" in different patterns that the Bowies had made and gifted to various locally important people. Worse, the knives most people think of as "bowie knives" aren't close to the ones that have been associated closely with him.

No one knows what he carried at the Alamo and no one ever will.

 

[bannockburn]

Larry the Bear

In the first edition of Knife Digest William R. Williamson wrote an article on the American Bowie Knife. In it he related how it was James Bowie's brother Rezin who made the first Bowie knife, designed primarily for hunting. According to records at the time the knife itself was made by a blacksmith named Jesse Cliffe who did the work under Rezin's direction. At the time of the Vidalia Sandbar fight in 1827, Rezin had given James the knife so he could defend himself if he ran into any trouble. Later Rezin had several knives made which he presented to friends, including one to the well known actor at the time, Edwin Forrest. This knife was lost in a fire at Forrest's home in Philadelphia some years later.

As to James Bowie's knife at the Alamo, according to the article there was a knife on display at the Alamo Museum from the 1920s until it was stolen from there in 1945. This knife was believed to be one of twelve knives that Bowie had ordered made by George Wostenholm of Sheffield, England. Later research proved this was not possible as the knife in question couldn't have been made until 1848 when Wostenholm had moved the factory to another location, which was clearly marked on the knife.

 

[rcmodel]

I doubt many of us would recognize Jim Bowie's knife if we tripped over it today in a junk store.

My best guess is it was made under primitive conditions by a blacksmith.
And not very fancy.

Probably iron guard, if it had one at all? (It may not have?)
Probably native hardwood scales.
Probably a thin, narrow, long blade with nothing fancy about it, except it was razor sharp like a butcher knife of the time.

My guess is it looked more like an 1800 butcher knife then a 2015 'Bowie Knife' produced by many knife makers today.





rc

 

[Slamfire]

It is my opinion that the knives owned by Resin or Jim Bowie looked like this Perkins/Shively knife:



http://www.antiquebowies.com/antiqueBowies/historic/perkinsShively/perkins-shively.htm

Now whether that knife is an original, or something with a legend added later, don't know. But this pattern of knife is very old and close in type to the common Green River knives of the era. So I think a good case can be made that is more likely to be the original pattern.

 

[rcmodel]

Yes, that one would be more correct.
If not a little more fancy then I would expect.

rc

 

[Gordon]

well you got "Smithsonian Bowies" but like has been scholarly discussed above not James Bowie knives
http://www.civilwar.si.edu/weapons_bowie.html

 

[JohnKSa]

This discussion is a prime example of how badly knife laws are screwed up in some places. TX knife laws, for example, criminalize the carry of a Bowie Knife without offering any explanation of what a Bowie Knife is. Since even the experts can't agree, virtually any fixed blade knife might be a Bowie Knife and therefore illegal to carry.

 

[kBob]

"The gun may shoot and the sword may cut, but the Bowie Knife is a weapon of certain destruction."

There was a modern reproduction on display at the Alamo when I was last there in the mid 1980s. Searles-Fowler?
Bowies receive a good bit of pre ACW legal attention.

There is a record of a duel on the steps of the Florida Capitol in which the winner was said to have outlived the loser by mere minutes.

I do know that Bo Randall took great offense at his number one knives being referred to as "Bowies" so let's hope they did not look like that.

-kBob

 

[hso]

There are years of research done and scores of articles written on the "real" Bowie knives and most agree that we can't actually know with any certainty what the knives Jim Bowie used during the fight either at the sandbar or Alamo looked like and the knives most people think of as "bowie knives" are nothing like what Jim Bowie had in those two events.

RC is spot on that the first knife was probably a version of a period butcher/hunting knife perhaps with a more pronounced point. Rezin Bowie or James Black are attributed with making that knife. The Shively and Searles bowies are knives patterned on the Mediterranean dirks of the time and stand between those endpoints of the sandbar and Alamo.

This article fits what we know so far - http://www.tamu.edu/faculty/ccbn/dewitt/adp/history/bios/bowie/knife_like_bowies.html

 

[Slamfire]

What I have read about James Black indicates that he was a successful fraud. He gained immortality by associating himself with one of America's legendary names, but in fact, there is no evidence he knew the Bowies or made any knives. These types have always existed, today they are easier to expose. Roland Sperry sold thousands of his Book "China through the eyes of a Tiger" before being exposed as a fraud: http://www.warbirdforum.com/sperry.htm I have found references that there are literally thousands, if not tens of thousands of frauds running around with Stolen Valor claims, boxes full of medals they never earned, soaking up the gratitude of the people.

From what I have read, there is not one James Black knife in existence, and probably, never was.

 

[bikerdoc]

My Texas relatives mention the Moore knife as a possibe solution to the mystery. We will never know.

 

[Leadbutt]

Just to stir the pot with a question so to speak,, but isn't mentioned in the after the fact article on the "Sand Bar" fight that the knife he used had some type of guard to "trap" the blade?? Haven't looked into the "Bowie" legend since the 60's so am a little rusty

 

[Ron James]

No, it had no blade catcher, blade breaker or brass inlay on the spine.

 

[GAMEOVER44]

Wow, some of your guys education really impresses me. I love this forum and reading knowledgable threads like these.

 

[hso]

the knife he used had some type of guard to "trap" the blade

Nope

 

[Barry the Bear]

Wow! alot of great info on this thread! I trust you are right we may never ever know what happened to the knife or if there was even one at the Alamo, and even if we did we would not recognize the shape to our current adaption of a bowie knife, but a man can dream.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

What I have read about James Black indicates that he was a successful fraud. He gained immortality by associating himself with one of America's legendary names, but in fact, there is no evidence he knew the Bowies or made any knives. These types have always existed, today they are easier to expose. Roland Sperry sold thousands of his Book "China through the eyes of a Tiger" before being exposed as a fraud: http://www.warbirdforum.com/sperry.htm I have found references that there are literally thousands, if not tens of thousands of frauds running around with Stolen Valor claims, boxes full of medals they never earned, soaking up the gratitude of the people.

From what I have read, there is not one James Black knife in existence, and probably, never was.

The Arkansas Historical Commission would vehemently disagree. I see several examples at the State House Museum and down at the museum in Washington Ark.

http://www.historicarkansas.org/knife_gallery/

 

[Slamfire]

I looked at your link and found this:

Although James Black did not put a maker's mark on his knives, curatorial analysis has determined that Bowie No. 1 was made by James Black.

A curator or keeper of a cultural heritage institution (i.e., gallery, museum, library or archive) is a content specialist responsible for an institution's collections and involved with the interpretation of heritage material. Curatorial analysis means that that a member of the institute looked at the knife and decided that it was made by James Black.

One should always be skeptical of authentication by for profit institutions. Having a a sacred object brings lots of money and prestige. The number of religious artifacts around the world throughout history should show that . Lots of Churches claim to have a true piece of the cross, or the shroud that Jesus was buried in, or a sacred rock or bone. All of these have brought lots of paying visitors. Take a look at how many Muslims come to see the Kaaba Stone inMecca. I recall that Alexander the Great went to Troy and took a shield and spear which were said to have belonged to Achilles. Since Alexander left his own, it was a fair trade, as later events proved. The Jewish temple was built around the Ark of the covenant. So was the Ethiopian Church of Our Lady Mary of Zion. It also the subject of an internet hoax when a hoax story came out that someone stole their Ark! http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/ethiopia-ark-of-covenant-reported-stolen-by-church-authorities/ It would be funny if the Ark was actually stolen, because the Monks could create a new one, and since only the Monks get to see the thing, no one would really know one way or another.

The Historic Museum of Arkansas is like any other Museum, has bills, salaries to pay and has a financial incentive to hype their collection. Therefore "curatorial analysis" by its staff of an object that draws brings additional revenue is suspect. I would be interested in reading the details of their Curatorial analysis to see if it has any basis in fact. Their claim to the one true Bowie knife, or Bowie knife maker, is just one out of many.