Where to buy a Saiga 12 inexpensively...

[JImbothefiveth]

Real riflemen know that the M1 Garand was a fantastic design because of its ease of firing in different position.

I'd much rather use a tube fed shotgun for the same reason

Those who are riflemen for a living don't seem to use the garand, and we have some on this forum, who say they wouldn't take the garand over an AR.

And seriously, when was the last time you shot your shotgun prone? (Okay, maybe if it's your deer gun, designed for shooting slugs.

 

[357wheelgunner]

Some of us stick with the factory 5 rounders for the size issue you mentioned. But I'd hesitate to call them ***** quality. The factory ones are tougher than you might think.

You're right, that was poor wording on my part. Its not the quality I disagree with, but the design. A long magazine running perpendicular to the weapon means that when the magazine bumps into something, huge forces are created where the magazine attaches to the weapon. There's no way to brace it, like you can with a tubular magazine, to the barrel.

Then again, coming form a guy whose screenname indicates and affinity for other aged equipment, the "real shotgunners only need this or that" mentality is predicatable.

I keep a Sig for my bedside gun. It's hard to mount a light to a revolver. Technology has its place, but magazine fed shotguns have too many weaknesses compared to regular tube fed shotguns. The only advantage, quick reloading, is mostly unneeded. I don't even think that many LEOs get into shotgun fights where they empty a 7 round tube, then wish they had another large magazine to spray more buckshot and slugs into the air. Also, you can't keep box magazines "topped off" as you go.

Instead of "real shotgunners" I probably should have said "shotgunners who aim and hit things, and know how to thumb rounds into a stable, supported tube".

The Saiga serves a purpose, but seems more like a fad, and an answer to a problem that doesn't exist.

edited to add:

Those who are riflemen for a living don't seem to use the garand, and we have some on this forum, who say they wouldn't take the garand over an AR.

By rifleman I mean people who can shoot at looong range with open sighted battle rifles, quickly and accurately. There aren't many of them who "do it for a living", and those do carry a rifle for a living nowadays are more worried about shooting at close range with high capacity .22 caliber aluminum rifles with vertical handles and widgets that require batteries to work.

Just because someone carries or owns a rifle does not make them a Rifleman.

And seriously, when was the last time you shot your shotgun prone? (Okay, maybe if it's your deer gun, designed for shooting slugs.

I've never fired my pump guns prone, but I shot an 1187 prone while sighting it in for slugs at 100 yards. Once I can afford it, I'll buy a tube fed semi auto, they're great, especially for shooting slugs (its hard to get a good grip on a moving pump, semi autos have solid forends and feel more....solid)

 

[SN13]

You make the argument that 20 5rd mags (or 10, 10rd mags) is alot to haul.... I'd argue that 4 loose boxes of shells is even harder... lighter? A little. Awkward? You bet. My mags don't disintegrate in the rain. If I reach into a bag holding my mags, i pull out 10 rounds at a time. Can you hold 10rds of 12ga in ONE hand? I reload from empty mag to 10+1 (Not empty chamber mind you) in the same time it takes you to go empty tube to 3+1. You MIGHT beat me to the second shot on a Fire, Reload 1, Fire. But I'll beat you to the Fire, Reload 5, Fire every time.

Now, there is something to be said about tube feeders.... they almost never loose a mag (Sometimes those tube-caps break and the whole piece comes apart, but for the most part, they always retain the mag (tube)). If you're speed-reloading a S12, you're dropping your mags. For competition, this isn't a big deal, but I can see why not giving the troops mags for a shotgun that will be a tertiary weapon for most, makes sense. Keep the Tube-Feeders.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

By rifleman I mean people who can shoot at looong range with open sighted battle rifles, quickly and accurately. There aren't many of them who "do it for a living", and those do carry a rifle for a living nowadays are more worried about shooting at close range with high capacity .22 caliber aluminum rifles with vertical handles and widgets that require batteries to work.

Do you know any "true riflemen" who feel the Garand is superior for this reason, especially when you factor in items such is bipods? This does however, say that high capacity is good for close range, such as shotgun ranges.

I've never fired my pump guns prone, but I shot an 1187 prone while sighting it in for slugs at 100 yards

If you're going to be firing slugs at 100 yards, what disadvantage does the saiga with a 5 round magazine have over a normal tube magazine fed gun?
If you're doing that, it's probably for hunting, where you don't need a high rate of fire.

That said, my shotgun of choice is an 870, and would be an 11-87 if I could afford it.

 

[stiletto raggio]

Here's my take on the whole "magazine protrusion" thing. If I am fighting with a shotgun, it is probably inside a building. I am not going prone, but I may be leaning around or moving over obstacles. I have never shot a shotgun in the prone, and I can't imagine a time when I would want to go to the prone.

If you are far enough away form your target that going to the prone is advantageous, a shotgun of any kind is not the weapon you want. And if you are getting on the ground to shoot under a vehicle or other raised obstacle, your weapon should be canted anyway. That is, you will be on your side, not your belly.

 

[Girodin]

All the discussion of extended engagements are so irrelevatnt to HD that it makes me laugh. For those that fear running their mags dry do you keep more than 50 rounds (5 ten round mags) with your tube fed guns?

It is hard for me to imagine a HD scenerio where I need to fire more than 50 rounds. If I do I gues I'll pick up the carbine I keep next to my S12. If I though this was likely i am far from convienced that the best option would be to arm myself with a tube fed shotgun instead.

Also if you are leaving rounds on a closed bolt for months at a time that is indicative that one is not shooting a gun they plan to stake their life on very often. Shooting more than every 8 months is much more important than what gun you have. I have not had an issue with round derformation but then I like to shoot more than a few times a year with a HD gun.

across my bed, or couch, or brick porch wall, or car hood, or whatever cover I have.

I hope you are aware that your bed your car and your couch are pretty poor cover. Concealment is the word you want for those things, bullets go right through them. That said you can lay the foregrip of an S12 across any of them, even with a ten rounder or a 20 round drum.

But if you are going to carry 20 5 round mags around, well, you just have not humped much equipment around in your lifetime.

What are we discussing here, HD guns or infantry weapons? That said the same can be said for the idea of carrying loose shells. Moot point IMO and certainly for a discussion of HD.

The fact is any number of shotguns can make very fine HD guns. Further it is important to differentiate between a weapon for HD and a weapon for other purposes.

I will say about saigas there must be some reason that using one automatically bumps one into the open class in three gun matches.

I have 870s and think they are fine shotguns. I have used Benellis and they are very nice shotguns. I firmly believe any of them (and a bunch of others) are more than up to the task as a HD shotgun. The saiga is more than capable. I have chosen to have it by my side right now and not one of my 870s and I feel very comfortable with that choice. If someone else prefered the 870 (benelli or what have you) I couldn't tell them they were wrong. Each have strong points and trade offs. We should be serious about discussion them though. Possible is a far far cry from probable and very often when doing worst case scenerio evaluations possible is pretty far from things that are even remotely likely to occur. worst case scenerio analysis often cases things that are more likely to be over looked and preparations for them to be neglected.

 

[gunnie]

got both

i have a pump, tube mag mdl 12 winch. limited shots between reloads. works good.

i have a pump, box mag valtro, reloads faster, but needs it more oftem than the winch. works good.

i have a semi mdl 11 rem WWII veteran, goes dry real fast, and reloads slow. works good.

i have a saiga 12, 10 rds mags take longer to become empty. reloads fast. works good.

i don't forsee, or discount any kind of scenario that any or them wouldn't WORK GOOD for.

gunnie

gunnie