Which AK 47

[CZ223]

I know I will get a lot of opinions on this but, since I know nothing about AK's, I have several questions. First let me say that I don't want to get into the ARvsAK debate here. I already own 2 ARs and will own more in the future. Okay, to my questions.

1) Are there any countries/manufacturers that I should stay away from or, in the converse, any that are much better than others.

2) Are the Saigas AK 47s or some variant? Is Saiga the name of the manufacturer?

3) Are there any sellers that you guys might recomend?

4) I have noticed that some of these guns seem like they are remanufactured. It looks like they bring in a barreled action and put on new stocks etc. and are selling these as new. Is this what is happening?

5) What I am looking for is a new or lightly used gun that is reliable. I also want one that is good looking. I like the plastic stocks or a nice looking wood stock.

6) What I am not looking for is a sniper rifle. I already own those as well as 2 very accurate AR15s. I dont expect this to be a target rifle I just want a gun that will do what I have already stated.

7) Price is a consideration so I would realy like to know what you guys think of the saigas as they seem very affordable. Are they an AK? Are they reliable? Do they take AK mags?

 

[Kymasabe]

7) Price is a consideration so I would realy like to know what you guys think of the saigas as they seem very affordable. Are they an AK? Are they reliable? Do they take AK mags?

Answer: Are they an AK? Ak action that's been neutered to allow importation. They come with a sporter stock. You can remove the stock, move the fire control group forward and install standard AK furniture and have a real AK. Reliable? Extremely. As a matter of fact, there are a number of US companies using Saigas as the foundation of their conversions. Do they take AK mags...yes and no. The older ones would not allow an AK mag to lock into place. The newer imports are built a little differently and do allow an AK mag to lock into place but rounds won't feed properly. There is a member on the Saiga forun named Danzig that makes a cheap/easy bullet guide that can be mounted inside the Saiga receiver that will allow a standard AK mag to work properly. He also sells some nice muzzle brakes for Saiga's as well.

 

[Manedwolf]

I don't like the looks of the Saigas, and I don't trust them to be the same quality.

Actually, they're much BETTER than the Romanian and others, from what I've heard. They're the Russian real thing, the metallurgy is assured. The pricey and excellent Tromix rifles are all based on Saiga recievers.

I love how some people equate inexpensive with "cheap" and expensive with "good". But then, I'm in marketing, so that's a good thing for my profession, making people think that.

 

[1911JMB]

My friend has a WASR 10 which is of course the yugo parts kit gun built by Century. It works, and it works well, but the fit and finish is aweful. Disgustingly aweful in my opinion. If he had it to do over again he would have bought a Saiga and converted it.

 

[Father Knows Best]

The best AK's available in the U.S., hands down, are the ones from Krebs and Arsenal, Inc. Krebs are probably the top choice, but they're very pricey ($1,000 and up) and there is a long waiting list. A close second are the products of Arsenal, Inc., of Las Vegas. Arsenal makes both milled and stamped receiver guns, in 7.63x39 (7.62 Russian), 5.56x45, 5.45x39 and other chamberings, using Bulgarian and US parts. They are absolutely gorgeous, reliable, and highly accurate. I'm a little biased, as I'm the proud owned of an Arsenal SA M-7S (milled receiver, 7.62x39, optics rail), but I bought it after doing extensive research. Peter Kokalis of Shotgun News has tested many AK clones, and calls the Arsenal guns the best of the best. Arsenal's website is here: http://www.arsenalinc.com/about.htm

FYI, Arsenal AK's are also in high demand, and little pricier than the cheap Romanian ones you see advertised all the time. While you can buy a Century Arms Romanian for under $400, and new Arsenal will run $650 and up, depending on configuration, but you get what you pay for. I paid just $395 for my SA M-7S in used but like new condition, and I think it's one of the best buys I ever made.

 

[doubleg]

Get a milled arsenal or a sagia with magazine mod.

 

[MechAg94]

Correia posts on this sight. He is a dealer that sells Saiga conversions that people say are pretty good. His web site is on his post signature.

I asked the same question last year. I was able to pick up a Vepr K. Unfortunately, the Russian mfg got bought out and they are not yet available again in the US.

If you want cheap, go ahead and get a Romanian WASR in 7.62. Make sure you can look at it before buying. They are cheap with poor fit and finish, but they do work. Watch for a canted front sight or excessive mag wobble.

 

[Father Knows Best]

So far as I know, Arsenal made milled AKs; apparently, they priced themselves outside of the general consumer market and are hoping to have an easier time selling stamped-receiver firearms.

You are incorrect. Arsenal AK's are very difficult to find, and often sell for a LOT when you do find them. Arsenal's problem has not been that they are overpriced -- it's that they can't keep up with demand.

Besides, Arsenal is still manufacturing milled receiver AK's. According to their website, they are the only company in the world still making AK's this way. While some milled receiver models have been discontinued, others are listed on their site as "coming soon" and with a MSRP of $800. That should mean that a friendly dealer could probably get you one for around $700, but you may have to wait awhile.

 

[meef]

Besides, Arsenal is still manufacturing milled receiver AK's. According to their website, they are the only company in the world still making AK's this way. While some milled receiver models have been discontinued, others are listed on their site as "coming soon" and with a MSRP of $800.

Are you sure on this?

I just checked their site and everything under the "milled" heading came up as discontinued.

 

[Father Knows Best]

I just checked their site and everything under the "milled" heading came up as discontinued.

You didn't check everything. Here's a couple that currently listed as "coming soon":

SAS M-7 A1 http://www.arsenalinc.com/sasm7a1.htm
SA M-7 http://www.arsenalinc.com/sam7nb.htm

 

[meef]

You didn't check everything. Here's a couple that currently listed as "coming soon":

You got me there.....

 

[rbernie]

I have a couple of WASRs and they're functional but not in the same league as the Saiga/Russian or Bulgarians or even the Norincos. Problem is, I have issues paying close to a grand for an AK. I mean, I like the weapon system well enough, but as a working tool. I'd be pretty sad to treat a $1000 rifle the way that I treat my WASRs and 7.62x39 Saiga.

For my latest AK, I wanted to get one chambered in 223. I debated the Arsenals, Romanian SARs, Romanian WASRs, and the Norincos. In the end, I went with a $280 Saiga, a $45 quick-release scope mount, and (to serve as a placeholder for a mo' appropriate optic) a $30 ProPoint. The only thing that the Saiga lacks out-of-the-box is a decent flash hider/bayo lug, but in return you get a manual bolt-hold-open (BHO) lever and a set of furniture that fits real people.

I've been showing this pic a lot lately; I'm really pretty pleased with the setup for the money, and I really like the idea of having a 223-chambered AK. I have a couple of 30rd Surefire magazines for it; they're not cheap, but they work 100% and they're supposed to work with unconverted Saigas as well as converted Saigas.

 

[grimjaw]

This is what I heard:

- new or lightly used gun that is reliable (most AKs will be)
- plastic stocks or a nice looking wood stock (still plenty of options)
- not looking for...a sniper rifle/target rifle (yep, still on the general AK track)
- price is a consideration (now we narrow it down some, if we knew what your limit was)

I assume you're looking for one in either 5.56 like your ARs or 7.62x39. You specifically mentioned the Saiga. The imported versions with 'sporter' stocks are inexpensive, but I've heard the trigger on those isn't all that great. The Tromix conversions that I've seen look good and I haven't heard many complaints from owners. They are reasonably priced but not cheap.

If you want a cheap blaster, you could try to find a SAR1/2/3 in your area and check it for things like FSB/gas block cant and trigger slap. The finish won't be good, though. Vector kit-built AKs are still available for around $500, and they are well thought of. The company also has a positive service rep.

So far as I know, Arsenal made milled AKs; apparently, they priced themselves outside of the general consumer market and are hoping to have an easier time selling stamped-receiver firearms.



I don't know if they are still producing milled receivers, but I do not believe it's because no one wanted them or that they didn't sell. The most recent stamped receiver AK that Arsenal introduced is the SLR106 in 5.56x45, and it retails for as much as the milled version (SAM 5) did, if not more. It was a profit move as much as a response to market, stamped receivers likely being less expensive to produce than milled ones.

Arsenal's claim to fame has been their milled receivers and attention to detail on the guns produced with them. I have not heard the same love espoused for the stamped guns, with everything from magazine problems to poor metal finishing reported. If you have a chance to pick up one of their milled guns for a reasonable price ($600-800), it'll be worth it. Can't say the same for a $800+ stamped AK that at the end of the day is still not that much more accurate than your standard AK, all other things being equal.

I have a SAM 5, SAR1 and SAR3. The SAM 5 is the most consistent shooter, but all three will put lead downrange without complaint or care. If I was only going to have one AK and didn't want to put alot of money in it, I'd probably get a Vector 7.62x39 or SSR 85 C2.

jm

 

[CZ223]

Why convert the Saiga?

I guess I don't understand, or at least not all of the reasons for converting. What I "think" I do understand is that the Saiga Mags are expensive and AK mags are cheap, so I guess that is at least part of a conversion. What is the rest of it and why do it? BTW, thanks for all of the replies so far. Also how much are we talking to convert it to a true AK?

 

[rangerruck]

just go to fbmg and check out their saigas. what they look like, because of the stock and no pistol grip, is a sporter rifle, which is how it is able to be shipped into this country. i like this config, and with 5 minutes and a dremel, you can have them take any ak mag. if you install the bullet guide, it will take both saiga and ak mags, with no dremeling to the ak mags at all.
I have 2 saigas, with the 16 inch bbls, one in 7.62 and one in 223, and both are moa capable, especially the 223. And this is not the exception, Saigas make a damn fine bbl, and leave the furniture plain black sythetic. You can buy brand new Saigas for 250 to 275, and with a few mods, and about 100 bucks(more if you really wanna trick it out) it will have the short stock, moved trigger, and pistol grip , just like a reg ak. Except your saiga will have a chrome lined bbl, hammer forged, and it will be accurate. I Origionally scoped my 223, but got rid of the scope, I don't need it, it is plenty accurate with the open sites for me.

 

[CarbineKid]

Im in the same boat as you are. I hear alot about Vector AKs as a good alternative. However I dont have any first hand experience with them. I'll be watching this thread as theres alot of good info in it.

 

[Father Knows Best]

If you have a chance to pick up one of their milled guns for a reasonable price ($600-800), it'll be worth it.

I agree. And there is one on Gunbroker right now with a "Buy It Now" price of $725: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=62046243

It's the same model I have -- the SA M-7S. It's a "ban era" model, meaning the bayonet lug has been ground off, and the muzzle break is pinned. Otherwise, it's identical to more recent milled receiver Arsenal AK's. There are a half dozen of those also listed on Gunbroker right now, but they're all priced over $1,000.

If no one else grabs that SA M-7S, I may just have to add a second one to my safe.

 

[Father Knows Best]

That's interesting. It sounds, however, like the info you reported is based on an email someone on this forum claims to have received. Without knowing that person or actually being able to see the email, I'll remain skeptical for the simple reason that Arsenal's own website continues to claim that they manufacture milled receiver AK's, and list several milled models as "coming soon."

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Please explain the difference between milled and stamped receivers.

Sorry for all the noob questions but I'm new to all this...

 

[trbon8r]

I've been looking to pick up an AK to go along with the MAK-90 I bought several years ago. I was hoping to find something a little nicer than the MAK and hopefully more accurate. However, I just can't get excited about spending 700 bucks or more for an AK, whether it's an Arsenal, Izmash, or whatever. None of them are particularly accurate, so why spend $700?

The odds of finding an accurate AK are pretty low unless it says Valmet or Galil on the side. In my opinion, your chances of getting a decent shooter are about the same whether you spend 300 bucks for the Romanian or $700 for the Arsenal. The Romanian might be a bit rougher, but then again I've heard plenty of complaints about Arsenal's workmanship as well.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Please explain the difference between milled and stamped receivers.

A milled receiver starts as a solid block of steel. Everything that isn't needed is milled away. A stamped receiver starts as a piece of sheet steel, typically 1 mm thick. It is then "stamped" in a press and folded, with rivets holding everything together.

The original AK-47 design was stamped, but the Russians quickly switched to milling because of problems they were having with the stamped receivers. In the late 1950s, they figured out how to produce reliable AK's with stamping, and went back to that method. These new stamped AK's were known as the "modernized" AK, or "AKM." For the most part, all AK's have been stamped every since. Stamping is much quicker and cheaper.

The advantage of a milled receiver is that it is much stronger, means it will flex less under cycling. Theoretically, that should mean better accuracy. The Kalashnikov design isn't inherently accurate, however, so even a milled AK isn't going to win any accuracy contests. Also, high quality stamped AK's can be as or more accurate than an indifferent assembled milled AK.

The downside of a milled AK is that a milled receiver weighs about a pound more than a stamped one. One giveaway of a milled receiver is the lightening cuts in the sides above the mag well. Even with those cuts, they're still heavier than stamped.

At the end of the day, there probably isn't much of a performance difference between a high quality stamped receiver and a milled receiver. The milled receivers are rare, however, and just feel like quality. Accordingly, they command higher prices.

 

[Father Knows Best]

I've heard plenty of complaints about Arsenal's workmanship as well.

Really? I've never heard anyone badmouth Arsenal. Their guns are gorgeous -- expensive, but gorgeous. The writers who know AK's, like Peter Kokalis, all say that Arsenal AK's are the best of the best.

There is another company, however, that sells guns under a similar name. I think it is "Arsenal USA." They don't have a good reputation. Are you sure you heard complaints about the Bulgarian AK's made by Arsenal, Inc., and not about Arsenal USA products?

 

[Father Knows Best]

Apparently, I don't have any pictures of my Arsenal on its own right now. Here's a picture of my SA M-7S with my other black rifles, though (a PTR-91 and a SA58 Para Congo). You can clearly see the lightening cut in the side of the milled receiver. That's a real Russian Kobra holographic sight its wearing, too:

 

[Father Knows Best]

I'm not calling anyone a liar, so back off. I'm just saying that hearsay (someone said that so-and-so said...) tends to be less reliable than a company's own statements. If the Arsenal website didn't say they were still making milled receiver AK's, I wouldn't be inclined to doubt someone who claimed they weren't.

And no, I don't need to contact that person (whoever it is). What I will do is call Arsenal tomorrow and ask. Whatever the answer is, I will post it here.

 

[trbon8r]

Father,

Yes I'm talking about Arsenal Inc.

Read up on some of the problems people are having with their Arsenals, canted front sight blocks, poor finish, heat treat recalls, not shooting even close to point of aim. Basically all the fun stuff you could get in a Romanian AK but at half the price.

Read up on the new SLR-106s. Seems quite a few folks are having functioning problems with those.