Which lever action rifle?

[Alaska]

Marlin 45-70

 

[PapaG]

In .357 magnum, a Winchester 1892 (or a clone like the Rossi) will be better than the 1873. While I really like the 73 (I have 3 versions of this - - - none in .357) the reality is the toggle link receiver was a comparatively weak design. Winchester adapted it to longer cartridges with the 1876 model, then abandoned toggle designs altogether in 1886 with the introduction of Browning's 1886 rifle.

I'm sure Uberti makes its 357 version of the 73 well. I myself am verrrry leery of them. I've seen one at a local store. It was a nice rifle but I passed. My 73s are a .44-40 saddle ring carbine, a.45 Colt short rifle & .45 Colt Long rifle. The toggle-link design is stronger than its most ardent detractors claim, but by the time you get into modern MAGNUM calibers, I am much happier with the Browning 1892 or Marlin 1894 design.

It's not surprising that your 73 has problems with shorter .38s. The taper or angle at the bottom of the lifter was never really meant to handle more than overall all length of the cartridge. The thing is, some 1892 designs also have problems with shorter cartridges. I have one .357 magnum rifle, a Marlin 1894 Cowboy, and it seems to like both magnum and .38SP equally, as far as feeding is concerned.

With 1892 Winchesters it helps to try out the actual rifle. I will say the ones I've heard with problems feeding .38special seem to be older guns.

If you can find a nice Marlin 1894, or Win. 1892 snag it quick!!!

The 1873 was made up til 1923, long after your contention that the toggle locking breech was abandoned. The 86 was a vast improvement in strength and smoothness, agreed.

 

[Tommygunn]

The 1873 was made up til 1923, long after your contention that the toggle locking breech was abandoned. The 86 was a vast improvement in strength and smoothness, agreed.

The 1876 model was the end of the line for the toggle-link design. The 1873 was originally to be replaced by the 1892, as the later model was less expensive to make, but what kept the 1873 alive for @ half a century was it's popularity.
Had it not been for customer demand the 1873 production would have stopped sometime right after 1892 production was ramped up and demand for it established.

Repros by Uberti and Miroku/Winchester's "continuation" of the 1873 and 1876 designs are due to cowboy action shooters and other similar sports as well as those who really appreciate historic weapons, like me. There has to be a good market for a weapon to be in production. That any particular weapon is being made has nothing to do, per se, with it being "best in class" or most powerful boomstick around.

 

[PapaG]

The 1876 model was the end of the line for the toggle-link design. The 1873 was originally to be replaced by the 1892, as the later model was less expensive to make, but what kept the 1873 alive for @ half a century was it's popularity.
Had it not been for customer demand the 1873 production would have stopped sometime right after 1892 production was ramped up and demand for it established.

Repros by Uberti and Miroku/Winchester's "continuation" of the 1873 and 1876 designs are due to cowboy action shooters and other similar sports as well as those who really appreciate historic weapons, like me. There has to be a good market for a weapon to be in production. That any particular weapon is being made has nothing to do, per se, with it being "best in class" or most powerful boomstick around.

Never said it was best in class or any other such thing. Just that Winhester did not abandon the design. Not intended as a disagreement, only a clarification.

 

[eastbank]

the top rifle was the last of the big and strongest winchester tube fed lever actions, a model 71 in .348.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

For what it's worth, with the exception of the 1860 Henry, all the Winchester lever guns continued to be produced long after the 'latest and best' replacements were introduced.

 

[WVRJ]

I have a little Marlin 1894CP that I shoot 180 grain Nosler Partitions for hunting and 158 grain 38 Special with cast bullets for playing around.It's super accurate for the type of rifle it is,and just a ball to shoot.

 

[BlueHeelerFl]

My Remlin 1894C handles both 357 and 38 spl fine. My previous 1894CS sometimes would have issues with 38's.

From what I understand the Remlins used a different lifter design that improved 38 loading reliability

 

[halfmoonclip]

Love pistol caliber carbines; deer rifle has been a Marlin '94 chopped to 16" in .44 mag; great woods gun, taken a bunch of deer with it in Westsylvania woods, and all have been DRT.
Wanted a Mirchester 92, but they were simply not to be found; got a '73 instead (which I do like), but still had the 92 jones. Finally found a R92 trapper, haven't shot it yet, a Marbles tang sight is due Monday.
As regards the'73, yeah, I'm amazed they're making it in .44Mag. The Rossi is in .45 Colt, and so is the Mirchester, generally with Trailboss loads. I may work up some warmish .45 Colt loads,(it's my understanding that lever guns can be taken to Canada?) but clearly mark them, so they don't end up in the '73, or, especially, the Schofield.
Moon

 

[Tommygunn]

Never said it was best in class or any other such thing. Just that Winhester did not abandon the design. Not intended as a disagreement, only a clarification.

By "abandoned the design," I mean that there were no further toggle-link designs created after the 1876. Future lever-actions were Browning designs. Perhaps I should have been more clear .....

 

[trekker73]

Changing brands may not help with the abiliity to feed shorter rounds.Lever guns are independant in what they like when it comes to cylindrical pistol cases. In fact a uberti 1873 probably has more chance of feeding shorter rounds than most 1892 and 1894 on average.If you asked the same question on ten different forums, you will get different opinions on what brand or model feeds 38 special best.

A friend of mine wanted a Rossi 1892 357 which also fed 38 specials so he made up some flatpoint dummy rounds and tested some in store. One of the guns fed everything down to wadcutters seated out a little to 1.41" long, short even for 38 special, so he grabbed it. This is probably the only way to be 100% sure the gun feeds what you want.Make sure you use the bullet shape you want when you do so, or pick the bluntest bullet you have, because bullet shape will also effect feeding.

Regards 1892's the Rossi is considered most likely to run 38 specials well of all the versions. The Browning 1892 from the 80's, and recent winchester/miroku 1892 are higher grade guns, but changes Rossi made internally makes them a little more forgiving with COAL.

As to strength the 1892 probably rules the roost. People have loaded rossis up to 50,000 PSI which are bolt action pressures, not that I suggest it. Some feel the marlin is as strong, either will handle any 357 anyway. The rossi can have some factory internal roughness which sometimes needs to be smoothed out. About 1/4 to 1/3 of the price of a lever gun goes into the final smoothing and finish and this is where rossi's save money. That said with small fixes if needed, they are as accurate as anything and unrivalled strength. I put a rail on one I used to own with a red dot mounted in the scout position as my eyes arent great anymore. it was a nice little hammer in close.

The main advantage of the marlin 1894 to me is its easier to mount a scope in the traditional position.

I dont have any experience with Henrys as I dont like end tube loaded magazines.

The italian Chiappa 1892 is another option, however I will never buy Chiappa again as I had so many warranty issues with another model.

The Uberti's are quite attractive guns, I was told by the cowboy shooters than Winchester/miroku's in 1873 and 1892 probably have a slight edge in internal smoothness and finish.

Regards the inherent weaker of the action of the 1873, there are still an awful lot of these being used at full pressures. Here in Australia the 357 and 44 uberti are quite popular for hitting pigs. Its not a matter of whether the gun holds together, I think its more a case of the heavy loads effect the headspace over time. The rearward thrust is taken up by the little radius on those toggle pins. I havent heard of one go out of spec, but a gunsmith would be better to ask.

 

[ciwsguy]

Don't know if you can get a new Marlin these days due to the Remington bankruptcy dissolution and sale of the Marlin brand to Ruger. I have two Marlins made by Remington (1894) in both .357 (made in 2018) and .44 Magnum (made in 2017). The 44 was a little rough at first but is now broken-in. My .44 does not like ammo with .429 diameter bullets. .430 shoot better and .431 even better. I read that .432 diameter lead bullets shoot the best in the .44 but have not had the chance to try those.

The 357 has never given me any problems with factory .357 or 38 Special. Just a bit finnacky loading semi-wadcutters into the tube magazine.

I personally like the Marlins with Skinner peep sights and installed them on both my rifles. The .357 needed a taller front sight, but the factory front site on the .44 was pretty close, so I left it as-is.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

If all you want to do is target shoot at 50M with .38 Specials, you could buy an Uberti 1866 Yellowboy chambered in .38 Special. Problem solved.

 

[eastbank]

uberti 1860 repo in .38 special, loves 158 RN at 800 fps.

 

[wiscoaster]

I like my new Henry Long Ranger. Mine is .223/5.56 and they also chamber them in .308, .243 and 6.5 CM:

 

[gotboostvr]

I like my new Henry Long Ranger. Mine is .223/5.56 and they also chamber them in .308 and 6.5 CM:

Those are pretty neat. I don't know what purpose it'd serve, but I kinda want one. 358win please!

 

[35 Whelen]

Howdy

Yes, all Italian made rifles are proofed for the cartridge they are chambered for in government run proof houses. This will include the toggle action rifles, such as the Uberti 1860 Henry and replicas of the 1866 and 1873 Winchesters. And yes, European proofing standards are a bit more stringent than American proofing standards, so no Italian made rifle will leave Italy without having been proofed.

HOWEVER...............proofing only involves firing one of two proof load cartridges in a firearm. If the firearm survives the proof test, the proof house signs off and stamps the firearm as being in proof. But there is such a thing as metal fatigue. It is completely possible for metal fatigue to set in with critical parts if many, many, many maximum pressure loads are fired in a firearm. This could eventually lead to failure.

Case in point. A number of years ago a friend of mine bought a used Uberti replica 1873 chambered for 357 Magnum. When he got it home he discovered a hairline crack in the frame. He brought it back to the store and got his money back. Yes, this was a used rifle, and there is no telling how many rounds, were fired in it, or how much pressure they generated. Perhaps one double charge of powder cracked the frame. Perhaps 999 standard pressure 357 Magnum rounds cracked the frame. There is no way of knowing. However that is the one experience I know of about a 357 Magnum Uberti 1873 that had to be returned because of a cracked frame.

Getting back to lever guns feeding specific ammunition. All tube fed lever guns (the pump guns too) have limitations on the length of cartridge they can feed. Generally speaking, there are two types of feed mechanisms. The toggle link rifles use a carrier that rides straight up and down in the frame. Cartridges are presented to the chamber in line with the chamber, much like a torpedo being stuffed into the torpedo tube in a submarine. All the others, the Winchester Model 1892 and its replicas, the Winchester Model 1894, and Marlin 1894 models use a pivoting carrier that pivots to raise a round from the magazine to the chamber. Very generally speaking, a cartridge shoved straight out of a carrier and into a chamber will be less troublesome than one which is feeding the cartridge into the chamber at an angle. Think about the problems sometimes encountered with a 1911 pistol feeding rounds up the ramp into the chamber.

Often bullet shape has something to do with this. A semi-wad cutter bullet can be more troublesome entering a chamber at an angle because the sharp shoulder of the bullet can sometimes catch on the edge of the chamber. Generally speaking, round nosed flat point bullets, and truncated cone bullets will be more reliable feeding up a tilted carrier because they do not present a corner to catch on the edge of the chamber.



The 357 Magnum Uberti 1873 is one of the most popular rifles in Cowboy Action Shooting, particularly with the top competitors. Most of these guys are shooting lightly loaded 38 Specials out of their rifles. Yes, any toggle link rifle can have a problem with ammunition that has a short Over All Length. There is no cartridge stop on the carrier of a toggle link rifle, the magazine spring pushes a round all the way onto the carrier, and the round stops on the rear face of the mortise in the frame. The magazine spring is also trying to push the next round in the magazine into the carrier and the only thing stopping it is the round already in the carrier. The shorter the round in the carrier, the more of the next round will be protruding into the bottom of the carrier. There is a bevel on the carrier that shoves the protruding round back into the magazine as the carrier rises. But if the round on the carrier is too short, the next round protrudes too far for the bevel to engage it, so the carrier is blocked from rising. I know for a fact that most of these CAS hot shots are shooting 38 Specials, not loaded down 357 Magnum length ammo in their rifles. Yes, there is a limit to how short a round can be reliably fed through a toggle link rifle, but I do not have the number at hand right now. Suffice it to say, if a round is too short, the carrier will be prevented from rising. An experienced CAS gunsmith can modify the carrier so it can be used with shorter ammo, but there is a practical limit to how much they can change the bevel.

Regarding the 1892 model; yes stronger than any toggle link rifle. And again, there is a limit to how short a round can be fed through one. And again, I do not have the number at hand.

The only lever gun I own chambered for 357 Magnum is an older Marlin 1894 carbine. My wife was shooting it when she was shooting cowboy with me because she did not like how heavy my full length rifles were. I was loading 38 Special ammunition with truncated cone bullets with an OAL of about 1.445 and the little Marlin never hesitated feeding them.

Regarding the strength of the '73's, all we have here is, at best, anecdotal evidence, same as always when these posts come up. A cracked receiver? For all anyone knows the rifle was dropped, and guessing that it might have been fired with a double-charged cartridge or it might have cracked from constant use of full power loads adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.

@Driftwood Johnson I think we all understand the proofing process, but I think the fact that these rifles are manufacturerd to withstand such high pressures speaks volumes about their strength.

I believe there are a couple of things at play where this subject of action strength is concerned.
The first is many shooters, especially older shooters, tend to look down their noses on the Italian imports, even though they know little to nothing about them. (I don't recall anyone addressing the strength of the Miroku 1873. Could it be because they are stamped Winchester? )I dabbled in CAS a few years ago and I noticed the older shooters who shot 3rd Generation Colt's, didn't have much respect for the imports. And this is understandable as the imports weren't always at the level of quality that they are now.
Second, and I believe most accurate, is what's referred to as the Illusory Truth Effect, which basically says when the same false information is repeated over and over, people start believing it. Despite the fact that 1873 levers have been imported by the thousands, chambered in .357 and even .44 Magnum for years now, and used by hunters and competitors without widespread, documented problems, shooters still believe that the actions are weak. Yep, we have car salesmen, farmers, carpenters, civil engineers, dentists, plumbers and countless other experts on these forums telling us that the Uberti engineers have it all wrong, chambering their '73's in high pressure handgun cartridges. And I bet in 50 years, nothing will have changed.

Merry Christmas!

35W

 

[Tommygunn]

I don't know if Miroku 1873s are as ubiquitous or well-known as the Ubertis. They're certainly more expensive than the Uberti. That doesn't mean they're better - - - - that is not where I'm going. I have a very high opinion of both makers and own multiple examples of both makers' guns.

I'm sure that Uberti's 1873s that are chambered in magnum calibers will not explode. Miroku's guns are not going to explode either. I'm still not sold on the use of magnum rounds in these guns. I don't believe it is false or "illusory" to say the toggle link action is a comparatively weak action. There is a reason why Winchester abandoned the toggle action when they updated the 1876 rifle to handle the big bore cartridges like .45-70 and .45-90 used in the Browning 1886. One chief reason was the Browning design was mechanically stronger. Even the 1886's later scion, the smaller 1892, was stronger than it really needed to be for the .44-40 and similar rounds that had been used in the 1873. That's why that 1892 design works so well for those magnum rounds, especially with modern metallurgy.

So .....357 or .44 magnum in Uberti/Miroku 1873s? Okay. Just not my cup of tea. But to each his own.

As I said I think Uberti makes excellent guns .... as does Miroku.

 

[35 Whelen]

Again, we're back to anecdotes and guessing, but since the first commercial cartridge loaded with smokeless powder was in 1886, (in France, if memory serves) I think it's safe to say that the '86 wasn't originally designed with smokeless powder in mind. In fact, while definitely stronger, it was, according to Dave Scovill in The Legacy of Lever Guns, originally designed for use with black powder. I think it's fairly well documented that it replaced the '76 because it could handle longer cartridges such as the 45-70, 45-90 et al. And let's not forget that the Model 1873 wasn't "abandoned" until 1923, a full 50 years after its introduction, and a good quarter century into the smokeless powder era.

I'm not trying to change your mind, just trying to wrap my head around how some draw conclusions, especially when there's really no hard evidence...only feelings.
If you're interested in reading on the subject of the '73, on the CAS Forum there's a section dedicated to the 1873 Winchester. "w44wcf" has done quite a lot of research on the subject of the the '73's toggle link actions.

35W

 

[3Crows]

Lever gun, make mine a Marlin 1895SBL Guide Gun:





I bought it to carry while hiking (alone) in Alaska some years back after getting spooked a few times. Ever notice how aliens and monsters become shy when there is a camera around, I am not sure there but the acquisition and carry of a GG assured I would not see another bear and when alone, that was fine by me .

 

[Tommygunn]

Again, we're back to anecdotes and guessing, but since the first commercial cartridge loaded with smokeless powder was in 1886, (in France, if memory serves) I think it's safe to say that the '86 wasn't originally designed with smokeless powder in mind. In fact, while definitely stronger, it was, according to Dave Scovill in The Legacy of Lever Guns, originally designed for use with black powder. I think it's fairly well documented that it replaced the '76 because it could handle longer cartridges such as the 45-70, 45-90 et al. And let's not forget that the Model 1873 wasn't "abandoned" until 1923, a full 50 years after its introduction, and a good quarter century into the smokeless powder era.

I'm not trying to change your mind, just trying to wrap my head around how some draw conclusions, especially when there's really no hard evidence...only feelings.
If you're interested in reading on the subject of the '73, on the CAS Forum there's a section dedicated to the 1873 Winchester. "w44wcf" has done quite a lot of research on the subject of the the '73's toggle link actions.

35W

The 1873 lasted until 1923 due to popularity. In fact, Winchester had planned on stopping production on the '73 when 1892 production had spooled up but only maintained production because of the 73's popularity. I have previously explained that the toggle design was "abandoned" with the 1876 because it was the last toggle link Winchester designed by the company, not because at that point all of a sudden, no more toggle link Winnies exited the factory en route to retail stores.

The .45-70 and the 45-90 of course we're originally bp. Iirc .30-40 Krag was the first smokeless propellant charged round, and was military. The first commercial was the .30-30.

As far as the strength of the toggle link in comparison, I've never heard or read any knowledgeable person who refuted the idea it was comparatively weaker than the later Browning designs. It is stronger than its detractors claim, as the toggle actually does not really line up in a straight line. The central joint actually is slightly higher than the two endpoints, thus actually buttressing it, strengthwise.

Winchester was actually acutely aware that the toggle link was a comparatively weaker design. Companies like Marlin actually introduced stronger rifles that handled the large .45-70 class of cartridges earlier than Winchester. Winchester maintained a grasp on the market strong enough to intimidate it's competitors mainly because Oliver Winchester had instilled a powerful marketing/sales ethic in his company and this was a major factor in the popularity of the company's rifles.

But it was known that the toggle link was "old hat" and Winchester would have to search for a stronger, more efficiently produced design if they were to remain competitive. So, enter John Moses Browning and his design, with the dropping vertical locks. Browning sold Winchester many designs the company never manufacturered, solely because they knew that the designs were good and Browning would simply sell them to competitors if Winchester refused them.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Is it just a reflection of how nuts things are this year, or is there another issue? Went on a mission in the spring to buy a Miroku '92; it was in Winchester's catalog, but none were to be had, anyplace.
Settled for a Miroku '73, which I do like, tho' it is a tank. Went back on a search for a '92, any '92...finally found a lonely Rossi on Gunbroker.
What's up with the scarcity?
Moon

 

[halfmoonclip]

Hey, 3 Crows, how much does that howitzer weigh? One of those "comforting, not comfortable" things, I 'spect!
Moon

 

[Tommygunn]

Is it just a reflection of how nuts things are this year, or is there another issue? Went on a mission in the spring to buy a Miroku '92; it was in Winchester's catalog, but none were to be had, anyplace.
Settled for a Miroku '73, which I do like, tho' it is a tank. Went back on a search for a '92, any '92...finally found a lonely Rossi on Gunbroker.
What's up with the scarcity?
Moon

1.) Popularity of guns right now as a gun control administration is spooling up.
2.) Covid 19 problems. Safety protocols and lockdowns affecting production and distribution.

 

[Milt1]

A friend I shoot with has Henry's in .22 and .357 calibers and he loves them!