I have looked and looked and im down to these two guns... they both look awesome around my price range and i will try to rent them both so i can decide.. which one would you go with and which one is better more reliable??
Which one? SIG .45 or S&W .45
- Thread starter jfanzen
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You didn't mention which model of either pistol you were interested in. However, there are major differences: The S&W .45 is a 1911 based platform that's single action only. The Sig .45 P220 is a DA/SA pistol that uses a bushingless locked breech, short recoil system.
Both are outstanding pistols. If you like 1911 style pistols, the S&W might be for you. If you want out of the box reliability and accuracy with little or no need to customize, then you cannot find a better pistol than the P220. It's my favorite .45.
The best way to find out what you like is to follow your own advice. Shoot them both and then decide. Good luck!
Both are outstanding pistols. If you like 1911 style pistols, the S&W might be for you. If you want out of the box reliability and accuracy with little or no need to customize, then you cannot find a better pistol than the P220. It's my favorite .45.
The best way to find out what you like is to follow your own advice. Shoot them both and then decide. Good luck!
ugaarguy
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S&W's 1911s are fully tricked out from the factory, so there is no need to customize them. The beauty is that there are so many aftermarket parts for 1911s so you can easily customize and tweak it to your taste. Everything I've read on the S&W 1911s also says that they're stone reliable out of the box. You're just as likely to get a bad SiG out of the box as you are a bad S&W. Its becoming apparent to me that euro-wonder gun fans like to cheap shot the 1911 and claim they aren't reliable out of the box. It's been my observation that the better 1911 makers [Springfield, S&W, Kimber (most of the time)] are delivering pistols that just as reliable out of the box as anything else. Let me be clear that I nothing against SiG; they've got fantastic ergonomics, and the introduction of their DAK and SAO P220s give me my preferrd trigger options.
What you'll need to do is decide if you want DA/SA, DAO, or SAO. The answer to that question will answer the SiG vs S&W 1911 question.
the p220 stainless awesome! im a noob.. to the guy that posted last/. with the abbreviations.. single dual action right??? dual action is where you press the trigger harder and single action is when its soft am i right? im looking for dual action then single action or single action all the way dont really know .. what is the p220 stainless? dual single both? and what is the S&W
ugaarguy
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The p220 is usually DA/SA Double Action first shot where pulling the trigger both cocks the hammer and releases it, then subsequent shots are SA single action where the hammer is already cocked and the trigger pull just releases is. Yes, as you noted the DA first shot has a heavier trigger pull than subsequent shots, and this heavy DA pull serves as the safety. SAO is Single Actiion Only, or just plain SA as its also called, where the hammer is cocked and the trigger performs the single action of releasing it for all shots. These pistols are carried cocked with the safety on, aka "cocked and locked." SiG's DAK trigger is a lighter for of DAO, double action only, where the hammer stays partially cocked for all shots. The trigger pull finishes cocking the hammer and releases it, so its still DAO. The fact that the hammer is partially cocked makes the trigger pull a bit lighter than regular DA, but not as light as SA. SiG also offers a P220 SAO, which, as you might expect, is single action only and is carried cocked and locked. That's one of the beauties of the SiG P220; you can get whatever trigger system fits your preference. On the other hand if, like me, you like plain old SA, and like the ergonomics, the 1911 needs no replacement.
Having owned a few 1911's I think the Smiths are the best buy out there for the money. Having said that I would go with a 220. As others have said if you want cocked and locked go with the 220 SAO. Most of my 1911s required some kind of tweaking out of the box to work. My two tone 220 has ran like the energizer bunny from day one. But if you want a S&W I would recommend one of the Commander sized Scandiums. They are wonderfully light, very accurate, and one of the most reliable out of the box 1911's made. Just comes down to which you like better.
Master Blaster
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Go with the smith 1911, its a way btter pistol than the p220
My SIG p220st is the least reliable firearm I have ever owned, the extractor failed right out of the box, its an extremely poor design for an extractor, its prone to failure. When I called SIG I waited on the phone for 45 minutes each time took five calls to get their attention the first three they told me jamming on everyother round was normal and it just needed a breakin. The 5th call being to the president of the company. They fixed it for now but I notice it still moves in the slide so it will go south again.
I own 6 1911 pistols, rangeing from a stock Colt govt. model made in 1978 with about 10,000 rounds fired by me, unknown how many by the previuos owner, .two kimbers, I have over 15,000 rounds out of my series one kimber custom classic target, and 7000 out of my TLE II with ZERO, ZERO, failures of any kind.
I only have one expensive P220 and its failed about 250 times out of the first 500 rounds, sig kept telling me it was fine and just needed a break in.
I have also read on the sig forum of several others who had my problem with a new p220, others claim that they only have the extractor break or the trigger bar break every 2500-5000 rounds, and at 5000 rounds every SIG needs a rebuild.
1911's are just getting broken in at 5000 rounds
JMHO YMMV
My SIG p220st is the least reliable firearm I have ever owned, the extractor failed right out of the box, its an extremely poor design for an extractor, its prone to failure. When I called SIG I waited on the phone for 45 minutes each time took five calls to get their attention the first three they told me jamming on everyother round was normal and it just needed a breakin. The 5th call being to the president of the company. They fixed it for now but I notice it still moves in the slide so it will go south again.
I own 6 1911 pistols, rangeing from a stock Colt govt. model made in 1978 with about 10,000 rounds fired by me, unknown how many by the previuos owner, .two kimbers, I have over 15,000 rounds out of my series one kimber custom classic target, and 7000 out of my TLE II with ZERO, ZERO, failures of any kind.
I only have one expensive P220 and its failed about 250 times out of the first 500 rounds, sig kept telling me it was fine and just needed a break in.
I have also read on the sig forum of several others who had my problem with a new p220, others claim that they only have the extractor break or the trigger bar break every 2500-5000 rounds, and at 5000 rounds every SIG needs a rebuild.
1911's are just getting broken in at 5000 roundsJMHO YMMV
Tough Decisions Here Brother~!
Both are fine weapons in their own right; but I must GO with what I know,
and that is that a West German .45 caliber SIG-SAUER P220A has been
my "BACON SAVER" for many years~!
Both are fine weapons in their own right; but I must GO with what I know,
and that is that a West German .45 caliber SIG-SAUER P220A has been
my "BACON SAVER" for many years~!
While it is unfourtunate the Master Blasters sig has failed him so many times, mine on ther other hand has never failed me once. I've had it for a little over three months now and in that time I have put around 1500 rounds through it and the only failure was due to the ammunition. Likewise, I own a kimber custom II and it has failed me to many times to count (although I just got some new Chip McCormick mags, let's see if that helps). Out of all my handguns, I like my Sig the best. Nice heavy feel to it, very accurate, and reliable.
Which do you like best???
Both are great self defense weapons....
1911 = single action plus manual thumb safety
Sig = double action with no manual thumb safety
OK, so some of the gang who know way more about guns will add to the differences, but those were the two differences that mean something to me between the two guns... your mileage may vary......
Both are stone cold reliable, accurate and will go bang thousands of times
Decisions, decisions......
Both are great self defense weapons....
1911 = single action plus manual thumb safety
Sig = double action with no manual thumb safety
OK, so some of the gang who know way more about guns will add to the differences, but those were the two differences that mean something to me between the two guns... your mileage may vary......
Both are stone cold reliable, accurate and will go bang thousands of times
Decisions, decisions......
man im kinda bummed out i was all for the sig.. but then reading that guys thread about his has failed him makes me nervous... ive heard smith and wesson will pay for your gun to get to them and back for them to fix it.. now that is awesome.. but im soo in love whith the sig p220 ALL stainless... i just dont know.....the s&w are in the same price range but i dont know waht to do.. im going to rent them out shoot them both and if i like how they both feel and loook i might just go with s&w because people say their customer service is awesome.... soo thats another couple of thoughts...
Master Blaster has posted his overwhelming discontent with his one and only P220 on numerous occasions. Do a search and you'll see what I'm talking about. His is by far the exception and not the rule. Oh, and the rebuild claim for Sigs after 5,000 rounds by Master Blaster is complete and utter nonsense. Go to Sig forum and look up some of the posts of Sig's going 50,000, 100,000 rounds or more.
Read the posts on this thread just for starters. Especially the 9th post by Grayguns who is both a well respected 'smith, former top IPSC competitor and runs competitive shooting courses:
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/699108036?r=699108036#699108036
I didn't knock S&W's in my first post. I've shot one and found it to be a great pistol. I wouldn't mind owning one. I also own 6 1911's and like them all very much. Having said that I stick by my original assessment. I prefer my P220. Neither of my P220's has given any problems in over approximately 7,000 rounds. I'd guess that the overwhelming majority of P220 owners would say the same thing.
I hesitate to post this again, but in light of your reservations about the P220 here's a well known test of it's accuracy and reliability:
http://www.galleryofguns.com/ShootingTimes/Articles/DisplayArticles.asp?ID=1230
This isn't meant to influence you in favor of the Sig. Only to let you know that Master Blaster represents only one man's opinion. Having said that, I think you'd also be extremely happy with a S&W 1911. They too are accurate and reliable. Go shoot them before you make up your mind.
Read the posts on this thread just for starters. Especially the 9th post by Grayguns who is both a well respected 'smith, former top IPSC competitor and runs competitive shooting courses:
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/699108036?r=699108036#699108036
I didn't knock S&W's in my first post. I've shot one and found it to be a great pistol. I wouldn't mind owning one. I also own 6 1911's and like them all very much. Having said that I stick by my original assessment. I prefer my P220. Neither of my P220's has given any problems in over approximately 7,000 rounds. I'd guess that the overwhelming majority of P220 owners would say the same thing.
I hesitate to post this again, but in light of your reservations about the P220 here's a well known test of it's accuracy and reliability:
http://www.galleryofguns.com/ShootingTimes/Articles/DisplayArticles.asp?ID=1230
This isn't meant to influence you in favor of the Sig. Only to let you know that Master Blaster represents only one man's opinion. Having said that, I think you'd also be extremely happy with a S&W 1911. They too are accurate and reliable. Go shoot them before you make up your mind.
ugaarguy
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http://www.sigarms.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=6&productid=95
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...angId=-1&parent_category_rn=15709&isFirearm=Y
Both stainless, both superb pistols, MSRPs are just over $100 apart (which means street price will be darn close). Which one feels best in your hand? When you go to the range do you shoot one better than the other? Thats all there is to it.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...angId=-1&parent_category_rn=15709&isFirearm=Y
Both stainless, both superb pistols, MSRPs are just over $100 apart (which means street price will be darn close). Which one feels best in your hand? When you go to the range do you shoot one better than the other? Thats all there is to it.
man that was a really good article.. yea ive heard opinions from differnt people everyone is differnt.. i shall shoot them both..... great article once again thanks alot...and i said it once and again .. this forum is the best.. quick responses and no hazing towards noob's .. thanks alot to you all!!
My personal sidearm's a sig p245, which is the 220's little brother.
Mine's gone 20k +/- rounds without a hitch. Reliable as heck. I replaced the recoil spring @ 10k rounds, took me 5 minutes on the phone w/ Sig service to get the right part.
The wife packs a sig P226. 5k rounds, zero defects.
Mine's gone 20k +/- rounds without a hitch. Reliable as heck. I replaced the recoil spring @ 10k rounds, took me 5 minutes on the phone w/ Sig service to get the right part.
The wife packs a sig P226. 5k rounds, zero defects.
I think S&W makes the best revolver out there. Not saying their revolvers aren't any good but a Sig is a Sig.
If you're liking the Sig so much, it sounds like you're pretty much made up your mind. The fact of the matter is, they're both extremely reliable (everybody puts out a lemon every once in a while) and they're both well respected companies.
Hold one of each and see how comfortable they are in your hand. I don't own either, but am wanting a Sig 226 and a 1911, so in the near future I'll probably have a Sig and a S & W 1911.
Hold one of each and see how comfortable they are in your hand. I don't own either, but am wanting a Sig 226 and a 1911, so in the near future I'll probably have a Sig and a S & W 1911.
I retail both brands, well used to, now into pure custom. Anyway the customer comments on SIG was significantly better then the customer comments on S&W. SIG overall was priced higher but also part of the get what you pay for. A SIG of comparable model and features was better built then a S&W of comparible model and features. For Example and single stack 9mm with aluminum frame and stainless slide of both makes.
I have carried a SIG as a primary duty gun as well as a back up for about 16 years and have replaced a barrel in one at about 40K and a very stupid mistake on my part. I could have gotten another 10K out of the barrell at least.
Anyway. I think SIG is a bit better but what is right for me is not for you.
Get what feels better to you, pointability, what fits your hand best you will shoot best. At least that has been my experience over 35 years of shooting and believe me. I have plenty of "DUH" guns that I bought because they were the latest and greatest or the usual dumb mistake "cheaper." There is a reason they were "cheaper" and my undying gratitude was not it.
That does not mean the higher priced is better for you. Get what fits you. Go for the better built gun.
That is why my tag line reads that way.
Hope this helps a little in your decision.
I have carried a SIG as a primary duty gun as well as a back up for about 16 years and have replaced a barrel in one at about 40K and a very stupid mistake on my part. I could have gotten another 10K out of the barrell at least.
Anyway. I think SIG is a bit better but what is right for me is not for you.
Get what feels better to you, pointability, what fits your hand best you will shoot best. At least that has been my experience over 35 years of shooting and believe me. I have plenty of "DUH" guns that I bought because they were the latest and greatest or the usual dumb mistake "cheaper." There is a reason they were "cheaper" and my undying gratitude was not it.
That does not mean the higher priced is better for you. Get what fits you. Go for the better built gun.
That is why my tag line reads that way.
Hope this helps a little in your decision.
Master Blaster
Member
picture worth a thousand words
I really wanted a P220 for a long time. I really want to like it.
Here is my thread and picture as to why I will not recommend one to anyone now:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=192908&highlight=P220ST+extractor
Pictures are worth a thousand words.
Here is Smith and Wesson's Customer Service number:
By Telephone:
1-800-331-0852 (USA)
Mon-Fri 8:00AM-8:00PM Eastern Time
1-413-747-3286 (International)
Mon-Fri 8:00AM-5:00PM Eastern Time
Here is SIGARMS customer service number:
SIGARMS Customer Service Department:
Phone: (603) 772-2302 (press #3 for Customer Service)
Fax: (603) 772-4795
Email: [email protected]
Hours:
Monday thru Friday 8:30am to 5:00pm EST.
Call both and let me know who answers the phone.
S&W is number one when it comes to customer service should you have a problem. Even SIGophiles will admit SIGs CS is problematic.
I really wanted a P220 for a long time. I really want to like it.
Here is my thread and picture as to why I will not recommend one to anyone now:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=192908&highlight=P220ST+extractor
Pictures are worth a thousand words.
Here is Smith and Wesson's Customer Service number:
By Telephone:
1-800-331-0852 (USA)
Mon-Fri 8:00AM-8:00PM Eastern Time
1-413-747-3286 (International)
Mon-Fri 8:00AM-5:00PM Eastern Time
Here is SIGARMS customer service number:
SIGARMS Customer Service Department:
Phone: (603) 772-2302 (press #3 for Customer Service)
Fax: (603) 772-4795
Email: [email protected]
Hours:
Monday thru Friday 8:30am to 5:00pm EST.
Call both and let me know who answers the phone.
S&W is number one when it comes to customer service should you have a problem. Even SIGophiles will admit SIGs CS is problematic.
I prefer the cleanier lines of the Smith .45's. They are also indestructable, have buttery smooth triggers and will even feed empty cases. Here are a 4546, 4556 and a 4556 with a 4586 slide.
I love my SIG P220A, but wouldn't feel ill-served by any of the S&W offerings. Standard response: rent them both. Shoot a bunch of ammo through them. Go from there.
I have experience with both brands. If I were to decide what to go with next it would surely be SW. The reason being their customer service is
LEGENDARY.
I have no bad experiences to report with SW new products or with Sig
products.
LEGENDARY.
I have no bad experiences to report with SW new products or with Sig
products.
Well... you could always give the Sigarms GSR a try. A cocked-and-locked 1911 with Sig's "To Hell and Back Reliability". (Italics are their PR department, not my words)
I've shot the hell out of my friend's S&W .45 and have been very dissappointed. I'm no terrific shot, but I can at least keep the vast majority of my shots in the black at 10 yards. Not with the S&W. Can't figure out why. And the slide being wider than the grip is pretty ergonomic, but still bothers me for some reason.
I've shot the hell out of my friend's S&W .45 and have been very dissappointed. I'm no terrific shot, but I can at least keep the vast majority of my shots in the black at 10 yards. Not with the S&W. Can't figure out why. And the slide being wider than the grip is pretty ergonomic, but still bothers me for some reason.
1911 or 220
that would be a hard one. i would say rent both and see which controls and so forth you are more confident in carrying. I have both and most 1911 owners that i know of have a 220 also which LOVE them. I know of one 220 that has gone for more than 50,000 rounds without one single malfunction, and also the barrel is still in GREAT shape. It will still shoot groups (weaver stance) at 50 yds. 1 1/2". thats pretty darn good I would say. However, let me worn you that once you shoot a 1911 (SWEET triggers) it will be hard to compare that to a SIG. Although they have Good or at least are capable of good triggers in their own respect, NOTHING beats that good ole Smooth single puller of the Grand ole 1911. good luck and hope this helps
that would be a hard one. i would say rent both and see which controls and so forth you are more confident in carrying. I have both and most 1911 owners that i know of have a 220 also which LOVE them. I know of one 220 that has gone for more than 50,000 rounds without one single malfunction, and also the barrel is still in GREAT shape. It will still shoot groups (weaver stance) at 50 yds. 1 1/2". thats pretty darn good I would say. However, let me worn you that once you shoot a 1911 (SWEET triggers) it will be hard to compare that to a SIG. Although they have Good or at least are capable of good triggers in their own respect, NOTHING beats that good ole Smooth single puller of the Grand ole 1911. good luck and hope this helps
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