Whirlpool Corp. seeks to block CCW law on Oklahoma.

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Well you are all in support of property rights right? Whose property is your car? Does your car become Wirlpool's while you are on their parking lot? I my car yours while I am on your land? That's right it is still mine! Do you control the interior of my car while I am on your property? Again I think not.

Well there you go, companies can decide if you can carry on their property. However their rights end where yours begin! They may be able to assign you a parking spot, but they can't tell you what to do inside of your vehicle! Because it is secure, your property, and I would argue that it is mobile "real" property. But you can still make thi arguement on other grounds.
 
They allow employees to dial 911? Heck, I can't even do that. We are only allowed to dial the unarmed security guards. Assuming they are still alive to answer the phone they will decide whether to contact 911 or not for us.

I'm willing to let corporate wannabe dictators kid themselves over anything they can dream up but when they start lobbying legislators against me they've gone too far. That company is permanantly down the drain as far as my dollars are concerned.
 
F4GIB said:
11/11/04 Daily Oklahoman 6B
Thursday, November 11, 2004

State Sen. Frank Shurden, co author of the bill, said the measure was prompted when a paper company in southeast Oklahoma fired several employees when guns were found in their vehicles during a drug sweep.

Huh???

If the car is locked, as it should be if there's a firearm inside, how is Whirlpool "finding" them during "drug sweeps"? Breaking in? Or asking the employee to unlock their car? 'Cause my response would be "Sorry, no." Fire me? No problem... see you in court. I don't care what the "policies" are, it'll be pretty easy to convince a jury that an employer forcing an employee to open up their car with no reasonable suspicion or evidence of wrongdoing is out-of-line.

If my employer suspects me of hiding drugs in my car to snort at lunchtime, then s/he should fire me. So, obviously, their "suspicion" had better be pretty well grounded in fact... :)
 
Cell phones. We're not suppossed to use them in plant, but that wouldn't stop anybody if they heard gun shots. More stupidity, they say the cell phones(1 watt transceivers) mess up the electronics, the 5 watt radio's everybody has for plant communications don't though. Thats the kind of smarts we have here. We can't park off property, we'd get towed, we get HP though there all the time. (so if we dialed 911 at least we'd get a good response time) Threw away my hand book, I'll have to check if we give them the right to search the cars as condition of employment.
 
Nope. Their property, their rules. I thought you agreed with that.
Civil rights trump property rights. You can't hire only whites. You can't even have a private Men's-Only club anymore. Refusing to allow people to defend themselves should be in the same category.
ask about a bill that recognizes the property rights but also makes the property owner responsible and liable for the safety of any person with a CCW that that property owner requires to disarm themselves.
At the very least, they should have to provide secure storage for your weapon. If someone posts a 'No CCW' sign, they should be required to provide lockboxes to store your weapon while you are on their property. Make them responsible for the gun, rather than making me leave it in my all-too-easily burgled car.
 
NoHarmNoFAL said:
2 Points here.

1) It is called Consealed Carry for a reason. If you feel that you need to be packing then deal with the consequences, take one for the team and set a leagal precident.

2) It is not possible to boycott every organization that offends your sence of right and wrong. Try as you might your list will get prohibitively long. I'm not saying to stop but THEY know that you will pick and choose who to boycott and who not to.


Excellent point. How many employers forbid firearms on their property? Mine does. IIRC, the Big 3 automakers all do. Are you going to boycott Ford, GM, and D/C? You don't have a right to have a job, so if you want to, you follow their rules. Personally, I think my life is more important than any job.
 
Yes your car is your property. But you can't bring your property onto their property without their permission. The company can say no cars at all on their property if they want to. Or, as in this case, they can say you can bring your property onto our property but because your property may contain some things we don't want on our property as a condition of us allowing you to bring your property onto ours you must let us look inside from time to time to make sure there is nothing in there that we don't want on our property. You have every right to deny them the right to look into your car, and they have every right to kick your ass and your car off their property and to forbid you from ever returning. Don't like it? Too bad. Work somewhere else.

Civil rights trump property rights.
Only because of the deluded socialists that currently run the place. Legitimate rights don't interfere with one another.

it'll be pretty easy to convince a jury that an employer forcing an employee to open up their car with no reasonable suspicion or evidence of wrongdoing is out-of-line.
No it won't. You agreed to it when you were hired and agreed to abide by company policies. The government needs reasonable suspicion or evidence of wrong doing. Unless it says otherwise in your employee handbook or employment contract, the company can ask to look "just because". You can either let them or leave.
 
Mr. Clark said:
No it won't. You agreed to it when you were hired and agreed to abide by company policies. The government needs reasonable suspicion or evidence of wrong doing. Unless it says otherwise in your employee handbook or employment contract, the company can ask to look "just because". You can either let them or leave.

The company cannot use "private property!" as an excuse to say no Mexicans or blacks allowed. Note I didn't say that it's illegal for them to search your car... just that you would have a fairly easy time convincing a jury that their search of your car was unreasonable. Also, in California (and maybe other states), a company would have a huge problem trying to fire someone over this... I guarantee you that if my employer wanted to search my car, I said no, and they fired me, I'd win a stack o' cash.

Could Whirlpool demand that, in order to be admitted onto their private property, you must be wearing a pink tutu? You would say yes... their property, their rules. But the people who work there who don't want to wear pink tutus would have a different opinion. There is no reasonable basis for demanding that your employees wear pink tutus, just as there is no reasonable basis for telling them they cannot have a perfectly legal item locked in their car.
 
The company cannot use "private property!" as an excuse to say no Mexicans or blacks allowed.

Interesting you put private property in quotes.

They should be able to exclude anyone they want. If excluding Mexicans and blacks were perfectly legal and they chose to do it, care to guess how long they would stay in business? Not only would they lose the business of all blacks and Mexicans, they would lose the business of a vast majority of white people too. They would be quickly replaced by someone who wasn't racist scum. Problem solved. No rights violated.

Don't say that the excluded people's rights were violated, either. They weren't. No one has a right to someone else's property unless the exchange is mutually agreed to by both parties. Nor do they have a right to force someone to perform work for them against his will, even if they pay him for it. The fact that the law may say otherwise right now only means that the law is wrong.

I seriously doubt you'll win any cash. And if you did, you had better hope it enough that you'll never have to work again. Who would hire you after you so publicly admitted you couldn't be trusted to keep your word not to do what you said you wouldn't? Taking the money on the condition you wouldn't do something and then doing it anyway is the same as taking the money and then refusing to work. The law may allow you to do it, but it is still dishonest, and I wouldn't brag about the ability to get rich doing it.


Could Whirlpool demand that, in order to be admitted onto their private property, you must be wearing a pink tutu? You would say yes... their property, their rules. But the people who work there who don't want to wear pink tutus would have a different opinion. There is no reasonable basis for demanding that your employees wear pink tutus, just as there is no reasonable basis for telling them they cannot have a perfectly legal item locked in their car.

The people who work there can work somewhere else then. The owner of the property has no obligation to be reasonable when deciding who uses his property and how - it's his. Those people have no right to those jobs. To say they do means they have a right to the owner's property on terms that are not acceptable to him. No one has a right to violate someone else's rights - no matter how unreasonable that person is being.

Using the previous example, how long do you think that company would stay in business if they demanded all of their employees wear pink tutus? Not long. Most of their employees would go to work elsewhere and they would be forced out of business or forced to change their policy - or find people to work for them that don't mind going to work in pink tutus. Either way, problem solved. No rights violated.

You can either follow the rules you agreed to and are paid to follow, you can take your gun to work anyway and face the consequences like a man, or you can find a job at a company that isn't run by gun fearin' wussies. Your choice.

The peaceful, voluntary association of free people is always the answer.

Freedom is always the answer.
 
jnojr said:
The company cannot use "private property!" as an excuse to say no Mexicans or blacks allowed. Note I didn't say that it's illegal for them to search your car... just that you would have a fairly easy time convincing a jury that their search of your car was unreasonable. Also, in California (and maybe other states), a company would have a huge problem trying to fire someone over this... I guarantee you that if my employer wanted to search my car, I said no, and they fired me, I'd win a stack o' cash.

Could Whirlpool demand that, in order to be admitted onto their private property, you must be wearing a pink tutu? You would say yes... their property, their rules. But the people who work there who don't want to wear pink tutus would have a different opinion. There is no reasonable basis for demanding that your employees wear pink tutus, just as there is no reasonable basis for telling them they cannot have a perfectly legal item locked in their car.

The 4th amendment is only a barrier to state conduct. Your employer could ask to look in your car and fire you for refusing. You may have some recourse if you have an employment contract or you can show that they violated some company policy in conducting the search. I don't know about CA, but in most states, it easy all the easy to win a wrongful termination suit unless you can show some type of discrimination based upon a protected class (race, gender, age, etc.).

As for the pink tutu, I guess they could require them. Rules don't have to be reasonable, they just can't violate a law or civil right. Until the courts start treating the 2nd amendment the way they should, you are not going to win this type of suit.
 
follow the rules you agreed to and are paid to follow

Corporate policies change. Did you also agree to any changes they might make in the future no matter what they are? I don't keep up with these whims of fancy myself.

Greedy faceless control freaks are everywhere. I'll let them eat their cake but don't tell me I have to pick up their crumbs.

I am paid to do a job and I do it well. That job requires me to think for myself. I'm not paid to be an obedient slave.
 
Did you also agree to any changes they might make in the future no matter what they are?
If they make the change and you keep taking the money, you've agreed. Don't agree, stop working there and go somewhere else. Did they agree to keep paying you even though you change your mind and refuse to do what they pay you to do (or not do)?
I am paid to do a job and I do it well. That job requires me to think for myself. I'm not paid to be an obedient slave.
If you pay me to fix your roof on the condition that I not sleep with your wife when you are not looking, and I fix your roof and sleep with your wife when you're not looking, can I say I have done my job well, even if you do have the best roof ever built?

Greedy faceless control freaks are everywhere.
Yes they are. If you hate them so much, as you should, it would be best not to follow their lead and become one of them. I don't like these stupid rules any more than anyone else. But fascism is wrong. Even if, in this case, it works out in your favor. Next time it won't. And you'll have no cause for complaint.
 
Hate? :what: Now there's a word that I don't like use carelessly when I mean it. Let us call it despise or detest. They are shooting themselves in the foot regularly. No sense of muzzle control. :D I'm enjoying the show, no personal encroachment here, they are basically a non-issue for me.

What may be happening with whirlpool may affect me in the end though. Seems they've figured out how to get all the money and are wondering where's all this power that is rumored to come with it. What they (and you) don't seem to realize is that there is no chance for power over others without their consent. Allegiance is earned, I don't buy your voluntary slavery bit, employment is a two way street. There's no getting around human psychology. Not even with legislation.

Anyway, where is it all going? Here's a theory. Give them this one little inch over what we can be allowed to possess in our cars and they will be in our homes next. History repeats. Henry Ford had agents which he sent to inspect his employee's home lives. I don't know if such a thing was outlawed or not but I certainly don't want it returning. We already know guns won't be an acceptable possession.
 
Think in terms of personal security.

Remember the singer, Connie Francis? She was staying at a motel in (IIRC) Pennsylvania. She was raped. She filed civil suit against the motel for inadequate security. She won and collected multi-million-dollar damages.

So: Whirlpool, by its action , has reduced personal security of its employees. Further, if its "security guards" are unarmed, that is also a decision affecting the safety of its employees. Last, if it is provable that the TV monitors are largely unwatched by these guards, I see that as negligence.

IOW, although not a lawyer, I see reason to take legal action. Employee class action suit? :)

One can aways notify top management of one's appreciation for assuming full civil liability for the well-being of any and all employees.

:), Art
 
Allegiance is earned, I don't buy your voluntary slavery bit, employment is a two way street.
It was your voluntary slavery bit, not mine. Don't like the conditions, leave. No slavery. You are the one alleging otherwise. Using slavery in this context is absurd.

Anyway, where is it all going? Here's a theory. Give them this one little inch over what we can be allowed to possess in our cars and they will be in our homes next.
Not even remotely comparable, unless you plan on hauling your house onto your employer's parking lot. They are not telling you what you can posses in your car. They are telling you what you can possess on their property. Park your car two blocks down the road and there is no problem. If it's not on their property you can have dynamite in your car for all they care.

Having to defend these idiots leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but even idiots have rights. Just like defending freedom of speech means you have to stand up for Larry Flynt, in order to defend property rights I have to defend whirlpool. Even if I do so while at the same time trying to change their minds. If they don't have the right to control their property then neither do you or me. Want to live in that world?
 
Their sandbox, their rules. It really is that simple.

If you feel that your life is at risk by working or being at that facility, then go work somewhere else. Or, as was mentioned, inform them that your family has instructions to bring civil action against them if something happens to you at work due to their lack of providing sufficient security.

Mr. Clark,

Well-said, all the way 'round.
 
Mr. Clark said:
Legitimate rights don't interfere with one another.

Absolutely incorrect. You are hiding the balancing behind the facade of "legitimate."

Just as an employer can't make you face East and bow down 3 times during your work shift because it's his "private" property, he can't do lots of things and must do others. All rights are limited. If not, you wouldn't have to say "legitimate." The employer's property right is limited by the employee's security right.

A state law requiring a property owner to allow an employee to store his lawfully possessed firearm in his car is no more an unconstitutional taking than a state law requiring a property owner to have x number of handicapped parking spaces adjacent to the main enterance.
 
Sent 'em a nastygram, got a reply... Looks like we've got a whole list of folks to target now...

===


Thank you for taking the time to write Whirlpool Corporation and express your concerns.

In response to your email inquiry, regarding Whirlpool's position on Oklahoma Firearm Amendments. Please know that our challenge to the recently amended Firearms and Self-Defense Act was prompted by concern for the safety and health of our employees at our Tulsa, Oklahoma facility.

Other companies, The Williams Companies, The Nordam Group, Conoco Phillips, Ramsey Winch Company, Norris D.P. Manufacturing Company, Tulsa Winch Company, Auto Crane Company and the Oklahoma Chamber of Commerce, share our concern and have joined this process.

The amendments would allow individuals to enter Whirlpool property in Tulsa with firearms --- an action that would violate our global-wide policy ban on firearms on Whirlpool property. Moreover, the amendments create many questions that need clarity, which is why we have challenged the amendments in Federal Court.

While we appreciate all points of view, we have a responsibility to ensure the safety and well being of employees at each of our facilities worldwide.

We have taken, and plan, no other action in this matter.

Lastly, please know that Whirlpool will abide by whatever ruling the court issues.

Thank you again for contacting Whirlpool Corporation.

Sincerely,
Whirlpool Corporation
 
jefnvk said:
I think it is their right to say no firearms on their property as a term of employment. It bothers me how people will rant to no end on how they should have the right to do anything on their own private land, yet say someone else must allow them to have their guns on their land. I think that Vitamin G has it right, just park off their property.
That's a nicely idealistic response, and it may work fine at your neighbor's house where you can just park at the curb, but at the premises of a large manufacturing plant, in an industrial park with other large factories on both sides and across the street, just WHERE do you think several hundred (potentially) workers are going to park if they can't park in the company's lot? And if the nearest place off-site that even ONE employee could park at is several blocks (or miles) away and he or she works second shift, wouldn't the mose vulnerable time of the entire day be the transit from the company premises to the vehicle? Or, for a third shift worker, getting from the vehicle to the plant.

Doesn't work. The law is a good law. Every state should have one just like it.
 
All rights are limited.

By other people's rights. Only. Legitimate means you don't have a right to all of the made up things people claim a right to. Because those rights would require the violation of other's rights in order to provide them. No one has a right to violate other's rights. If they did, the entire concept of rights would be meaningless. Legitimate rights don't interfere with one another. Made up rights often do. Stop making up rights that let you rationalize forcing other people to do what you want them to do.

"Any alleged 'right' of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right" -Ayn Rand

an employer can't make you face East and bow down 3 times during your work shift because it's his "private" property
Of course not, because you can refuse to do it and leave.
 
jnojr said:
The company cannot use "private property!" as an excuse to say no Mexicans or blacks allowed. Note I didn't say that it's illegal for them to search your car... just that you would have a fairly easy time convincing a jury that their search of your car was unreasonable.

I doubt it. First, go back and read that employee manual you probably signed, signifying your acceptance of the terms and your agreement to abide by them. In court, they will trot that out to show that you granted permission to search your vehicle whenever they want, and your case is closed.

Secondly, you won't get a jury trial, because it is not a criminal matter, and you will be the plaintiff rather than the defendent. If you muster up the cash to hire an attorney who will even take the case, it will be heard by a judge, who will consider the legality of the language in the employee handbook, look to verify that you signed (acknowledging that you read, understoodm and accepted the terms set forth therein), and that'll be it. The court will recess until 2:00 p.m. for lunch.

Also, in California (and maybe other states), a company would have a huge problem trying to fire someone over this... I guarantee you that if my employer wanted to search my car, I said no, and they fired me, I'd win a stack o' cash.

Again, very doubtful -- for the same reason: You gave permission for the search.

Could Whirlpool demand that, in order to be admitted onto their private property, you must be wearing a pink tutu? You would say yes... their property, their rules. But the people who work there who don't want to wear pink tutus would have a different opinion. There is no reasonable basis for demanding that your employees wear pink tutus, just as there is no reasonable basis for telling them they cannot have a perfectly legal item locked in their car.
You don't understand. This is private employment. There is no Constitutional protection in place either for or against pink tutus. If Whirlpool wishes to make the wearing of pink tutus a condition of employment, they have EVERY right to do so, just as you have every right to decline employment at a company which requires the wearing of pink tutus.
 
Ryder said:
Corporate policies change. Did you also agree to any changes they might make in the future no matter what they are? I don't keep up with these whims of fancy myself.
In many cases, you DO agree to any future changes in policy. Personnel manuals often include language saying that you agree to abide by the terms set forth in the manual as presented to you, "and as subsequently amended from time to time" or similar catch-all language. That generally requires and includes a provision that you must be notified of any changes or new provisions, but in general personnel manuals are set up to force you to agree to provisions that may not happen for a long time.
 
F4GIB said:
... an employer can't make you face East and bow down 3 times during your work shift because it's his "private" property...
No, he can't. But he can make you do so as a condition of employment. You, and some others in this thread, are mixing civil rights, property rights, and employment rights indiscriminately. They are not interchangeable.
 
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