Who buys Winchester 21's and what do they do with them?

[bushmaster1313]

I have convinced myself that the Winchester 21 is probably the most beautiful shotgun I could ever hope to own. I have an irrational desire to buy a Model 21 Trap. However, I just can't see myself spending upwards of $5,000 for a gun that isn't going to shoot better than a $1,000 gun, which probably cannot shoot steel shot, and which will go down in value if it gets mucked up.

In fact, for the price of a fair M21 I could buy a 4e SBT, a python, a Model 70, a Model 12 and a nice double.

Who actually buys Model 21's and what do they do with them?

Unlike the many Model 70's which all look like they have been around the block and then some, the Model 21's I see for sale do not look like they spent much time at all in the woods, behind a duck blind or on the trap line.

 

[Liberty1776]

1. People with good taste, good sense and much more money than I have...
2. Shoot them forever as they are double-plus tough.

but I think you're right about the steel shot...

 

[natman]

A while ago a woman came into the shop and said she wanted to go skeet shooting. Since the local skeet ranges require steel, I asked her if her shotgun took steel shot. She said she didn't know, but the gun was in her car. She brought in a small case, inside of which was a stone mint 20 ga Model 21.

I informed her that it was NOT suitable for steel and offered to trade her pick of the Berettas, Brownings or Guerinis we had in stock. She declined, saying it was an inheritance from her father.

"My sister got the Parker".

 

[huntsman]

Who actually buys Model 21's and what do they do with them?

The 21 more than any other US shotgun has suffered for the collectors high prices.

I would buy one and use it as it was intended (field gun) and ignore what the "collector value" is.

 

[Al LaVodka]

My brother-in-law bought, OK, "stole" one from the little old widow next door who didn't know much better, and used it as collateral to buy a house.
Al

 

[ArmedBear]

I don't "get" the Model 21, but Ernest Hemingway seemed to like the thing.

Of course, you can get a brand new, top-quality 21 from CSMC, for a price. I think you can even use it for steel shot. For that money, it wouldn't be my choice of shotguns, but to each his own, I guess.

Consider what people pay for Model 12s, if they're anything but used-up 12 Gauge beaters. Yeah, they're nice, but they're still just pump shotguns, you know, kind of like a really good hamburger. It's good, but it's still a hamburger! Considering that, the 21 doesn't seem so bad.

 

[Tom Held]

Care and Quality

I'm one of the fortunate guys who was able to buy a couple of 21s a few years ago before the cost went sky high and the economy went bust. The overall quality of each 21 is really exceptional. Almost all were special ordered. The chokes on each barrel were checked and adjusted to shoot perfectly true before the guns were released. If you pattern a 21 it is incredible how perfectly even the spread will be, better than any gun I've ever seen, never a hole in it where a bird might be missed. They have become great investments and are one of the few shotguns that increase in value every year and with the exception of Galazan they are not making any more.

Yes, the 12 gauge guns are heavy to carry in the field but the 20 ga and 16 ga guns are a delight to shoot pheasant and quail. I've always wanted a 28gauge or 410 but they made so few and now the prices for those are pushing $40,000 if you can find one.

I've have seen the basic field guns coming out of closets now in the $3500 to $4,000 range.

Tom

 

[oneounceload]

Olin wanted these guns to be the best of the best - whether you think that or not is a matter of opinion. They ARE well made, but many also find them heavy and cumbersome to move quickly. While nice on a trap field, their field prowess was somewhat lacking. An AyA #2 will be more lithe and svelte and handle like a wand.

Now, THIS gentlemen has some serious collector 21's - and they're all for sale. None have even been assembled since they left the factory and many are one of a kind:

http://www.winchestermodel21.com/page1.html

 

[Tom Held]

VP stamp

Take forearm off one of the older 21s (1931 to about 1935) and you'll find a VP stamp on the underside of each barrel next to the choke designation. These early guns were "velocity proofed" by Winchester. Each gun was fired a number of times with shells that were 50% higher loads than those available at the time. Winchester originally tested a 21 against the best English side by sides (Purdey's, Holland and Holland's, etc.) with the idea of firing each gun until failure with these VP loads. Every English gun failed after a few hundred rounds. The 21 kept firing until they just gave up trying to defeat it after 2,000 consecutive rounds.

Only about 30,000 21s were every made. In 1930 you could buy one for $59.50 with double triggers and extactors.

Tom

 

[ArmedBear]

They ARE well made, but many also find them heavy and cumbersome to move quickly.

Far and away the best-built and finest-finished of the great American boxlock pigs.

Winchester originally tested a 21 against the best English side by sides (Purdey's, Holland and Holland's, etc.) with the idea of firing each gun until failure with these VP loads.

That's neat. Kind of like a 4-ton sports car with a heavy boxed ladder frame and 8000 lb. towing capacity. And the thought of "proving" one's superiority by trashing best guns and firing proof loads in them to failure is only slightly short of the Taliban blowing up the Buddhas carved into the mountainsides. I can think of little else that so perfectly illustrates "ugly American."

Those British guns are what, about a pound and a half lighter? They're designed for balance and quickness. But, "You can use our putter to drive railroad spikes! Sure, it feels like a sledgehammer, but it's as strong as one, too!"

But like I said, I don't "get" the things. Maybe in 20, but not for the price.

 

[huntsman]

Only about 30,000 21s were every made. In 1930 you could buy one for $59.50 with double triggers and extactors.

If I only had a time machine and a pocket full of silver dollars

 

[Tom Held]

One last time

Well, I'll weight on this one last time. John Olin believed that Winchester could produce a high quality side by side shotgun that would be equal to and surpass the English, Spanish, and Italian gun makers in cost and functionality. It was made for the American shooter who was not concerned with exhibition class wood, miniscule engraving, could be shot all day in a duck blind, dropped in the marsh and still be functional. And you did not have to wait 2 years to have it built.

Winchester later granted a license to a Spanish gunmaker to make the Winchester Model 22. It has Winchester marked on it but it's a piece of junk.

The 21s that were built as skeet, deluxe, and custom models are beautifully done. And I would put a Grand American up against any Best gun for the quality of wood (American Walnut) and checkering. They are stunning guns.

Many of the early 30s and 40 guns were used in this country for waterfowling which meant a lot of shooting of heavy loads. And there were many tournanments won with the trap and skeet grade versions.

Last weekend at a live bird shoot (pigeon ring) three of the five events were won with guys shooting 21s that were made 50 and 60 years ago shooting 3 1/2 dram loads with 1 1/4 oz of 8s. The other two events were won by guys shooting Perazzi's. The brownings, berettas, a Purdy, a Holland and Holland, and two Fabbri's (one that set a guy back $160,000 and built as a pigeon gun) were not even close to being in the money.

The L.C. Smiths and Parkers were also fine guns. The 21 will endure as one of the finshes side by sides every made. Just my opinion.

Tom

 

[oneounceload]

Last weekend at a live bird shoot (pigeon ring) three of the five events were won with guys shooting 21s that were made 50 and 60 years ago shooting 3 1/2 dram loads with 1 1/4 oz of 8s. The other two events were won by guys shooting Perazzi's. The brownings, berettas, a Purdy, a Holland and Holland, and two Fabbri's (one that set a guy back $160,000 and built as a pigeon gun) were not even close to being in the money.

It's the Indian, not the arrow - I would venture that if you had the winners swap guns (assuming they fit as well as their own), they would have won with the H&H, Fabbri, et al.

I'm not saying Olin didn't build a good gun. Balance, however, was not something typically found on American guns - weight was, however. For American trap, etc. 21's do a nice job. While the gent selling his personal collection (see link in my post above) has some gorgeous eye candy. it is unlikely that any of them will ever be shot or assembled - would ruin the value

 

[earlthegoat2]

Compared to a European shotgun 21s are total slugs in my hands. A 21 with a vent rib single trigger, beavertail forend, and a pistol grips is everything I do not like in SxSs. Add to that, inferior handling and balance and you have a gun that looks good in the dark and handles pigeons like your shooting in the dark.

This is one of the only shotguns i have experience with in which the 20 gauge handles the same as the 12 gauge. THey must have finely inlaid a brick of lead into the massive beavertail forend. Even Stevens Model 311 20 gauges are more dynamic than the Stevens 311 12s.

I understand they came more Europeanized but the vast majority of them are poorly configured to my tastes and overpriced to boot. I would rather buy a Spanish gun that IMO is twice the gun for half the price or more.

The collectors can have them because I would not buy one if it cost as much as a Stoeger.

 

[PJR]

The instant a collector's market develops for a gun it becomes more difficult for people who believe that guns are meant to be used as their makers intended. For a shooter "collectible" is more of a condemnation than an accolade.

The Model 21 is a well made representation of an American style boxlock shotgun with all the attendant features of sluggish handling, wide frame, monstrously large stock and forend. It is to the American taste, no different than a Weatherby rifle or a 1950's Chrysler with fins. The Winchester 21 is not subtle but the same can be said about America.

Serious gun collecting (as opposed to accumulating) is a soulless and uninspiring pursuit. Fine guns are reduced to being no different than any other bric-a-brac put on display. The trophy gun has no role other than to sit in a case and hopefully appreciate in value. Heck, even a trophy wife gets bedded now and again.

For the price of a high-grade, original, unfired Model 21 there are better, finer and more desirable shotguns available.

 

[Tom Held]

agreed

I don't totally disagree with you guys regarding the weight and handling of some of the 21s, particularly the 12 gauge, Duck Model (3") with perhaps 32 or 34 in barrels. But the 16 gauge I own with splinter forearm, double triggers, and ejectors choked cylinder in the right barrel and modified in the left is a really nice gun to shoot in the field for dove and quail and weighs just over 6 pounds.

I know a number of guys who own 21s and like me they don't stay locked up in a closet or gun safe. They get shot often and hard and it does not decrease the value of the gun. Anyone who has say $5,000 setting in a mutual fund or some savings account earning about 1% interest or less ought to take it out and buy a good serviceable 21 or a Parker or an L.C. Smith. At least you have something you can touch, feel, and use (better than a piece of paper) and it will continue to appreciate 4 or 5 percent each year.

Yes, there are better guns out there for the money. But with the exception of the really expensive English, Italian, and Spanish SxSs they will decrease in value as you own them. And you don't own a piece of American history or have anything you can hand down to your grandkids.

Again, just my opinion. Tom

 

[huntsman]

The Model 21 is a well made representation of an American style boxlock shotgun with all the attendant features of sluggish handling, wide frame, monstrously large stock and forend. It is to the American taste, no different than a Weatherby rifle or a 1950's Chrysler with fins. The Winchester 21 is not subtle but the same can be said about America.

well said.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Heck, even a trophy wife gets bedded now and again.

If she's lucky, by someone who knows what he or she is doing. Same could be said for a lot of fine firearms.

Let's hear it for the help.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Every 21 I've handled has done well for me, including one nifty little 20 gauge. And one skeet model a friend owns may be my perfect bird gun, if I don't mind a little weight.

Whatever lifts your luggage.