who has knowledge of springs?

[generic sportsshooter]

measuring on a hammer fired pistol (vektor cp1 turd), with hammer and sear removed including their springs.

it has a trigger safety button on the trigger connected to a cross pin in the trigger that hits the frame so the trigger itself can't move back more than 1mm.

when i pull on the trigger as normal, the safety button travels in 2mm which requires 600 grams in total while it retracts the cross pin.

at 730 grams i can then pull the trigger back further , 4.6mm which requires an additional 1400 grams to the 600 grams of the safety button.

if i want to put in a lighter trigger return spring, would i also have to put in a lighter safety button spring? to make sure the trigger safety fully disengages the cross pin before the whole trigger moves back? i'm afraid otherwise the trigger would move back first 1mm till the crosspin is pressed against the frame, and that would make retracting the crosspin heavy and would leave scratches on the frame.

i want to lighten the trigger pull a bit as it is crazy heavy.
but for obvious safety reasons i don't want to touch the sear & hammer.
the hammer has a crazy heavy torsion spring for which unfortunately there is no lighter replacement. it puts extreme force on the sear
so i thought maybe reducing the 2000 grams required to move the trigger itself back would help?

or should i just get a lighter hammer torsion spring made?

it's not a carry gun, just a range plinker which can't hit any target because of the crazy trigger pull.

edit: some additional measuring:

triggerpull on assembled gun with no trigger return spring installed = 2190 gram
triggerpull on assembled gun with trigger return spring = 3500 gram
triggerpull to disengage sear, no hammer spring installed = 2210 gram

 

[generic sportsshooter]

i kinda managed to answer my own question after finding a spring from a ballpoint pen that matches the dimensions of the stock spring.
trigger reset functions good, no problem with the trigger safety, and trigger pull went down from 3500 grams to 2300 grams.

also found a spring supplier that has this dimension of springs in stock in various springrates. will order a few different ones to see which one is most suitable.
for euro 1.30 a piece thats not going to be a problem.

finally a usable trigger pull, without touching the sear/hammer setup.

 

[Blue68f100]

Knowing what gun your working on would be a good help,

 

[generic sportsshooter]

in this case that won't make much difference, its a vektor cp1.
technical questions about those usually result in silence because no one knows anything about them other than the recall.

 

[shoobe01]

If looking for springs, note that grams are a measure of mass not force. You are measuring gram-force (gf) and can convert that to an actual conventional force unit (newtons) by multiplying the gf value by 0.009807.

(Yes, scales lie. If you weigh yourself in kg, that's kgf; the scale only works on the floor, on earth, at appx ground level. But when you get this technical, it starts mattering.)

If I got your totals right, you have a 2kgm trigger pull, which is about 4.4 lbs which is... fine. Doesn't seem crazy heavy at all. I'd just play with methods of shooting instead; you may have to change the way you address the trigger (what part of your finger, at what angle, is doing the pulling) to make it work better.

Anyway: still impossible to estimate without knowledge of the specific machine as there is no ideal mechanism. There are angles, internal friction points, etc.

IF I was inclined to change anything, I'd do it in conventional experimental manner with control. Change ONE thing at a time, see if it works by observation. I'd not change the trigger safety spring, for example, until I absolutely had to. Mainspring is usually all that needs to be changed when people do trigger work on firearms, and very often those who start messing with trigger return springs etc get failures to reset, even doubling/tripling (rarely: full auto the whole gun. Usually it shakes itself back to operating before that). So, slowly, carefully, and even when it gets to live fire first without full magazines.

 

[Jim Watson]

If I got your totals right, you have a 2gm trigger pull, which is about 4.4 lbs which is... fine.

I think he has a 2 KILOgram trigger pull.

And yes, the world of the French system has debates over using mass units for force just as we might have fine distinctions over using force units for mass... but seldom do.

Probably arising over the habit of match officials using actual weights to check trigger pull. Like if you hang a 2 kilogram mass off the trigger, it will click.

 

[shoobe01]

Sorry, typo, yes, I got not g. Even at kg, not outrageous. Fixing that.

ETA: Yes I know people in some industry even just say g when they mean gf, but I meant IME that spring people do not mess around and use proper units always, so that may help when searching out real springs or custom springs to be made.

 

[Blue68f100]

Springs rate is rated force per a set travel. Some are a constant rate while others are variable. A lot comes into play, dia wire, coil size and spacing. Then some are only designed for a specific load within a limited travel range. Like said angles, pivot points all come into play.

 

[Jim Watson]

I meant IME that spring people do not mess around and use proper units always, so that may help when searching out real springs or custom springs to be made.

I dunno, Wolff and ISMI are in the gun spring business and list by total spring load at the in-gun compressed length, the mechanical engineering spring constant not seen. The in-battery spring load is sometimes mentioned in the gun specifications.

If you are buying industrial springs to adapt to a gun, you will have to do some translating.

 

[entropy]

I think he has a 2 KILOgram trigger pull.

And yes, the world of the French system has debates over using mass units for force just as we might have fine distinctions over using force units for mass... but seldom do.

Probably arising over the habit of match officials using actual weights to check trigger pull. Like if you hang a 2 kilogram mass off the trigger, it will click.

Yes, 2 kilograms is 4.4 lbs.

4.4 lbs is not crazy heavy.

7.7lbs. (3.5 kilos) is a bit on the heavy side, glad you found a way to reduce it to 5 lbs.,generic Sportshooter. 5 lbs is very decent combat/range trigger pull.

 

[generic sportsshooter]

Yes, 2 kilograms is 4.4 lbs.

4.4 lbs is not crazy heavy.

7.7lbs. (3.5 kilos) is a bit on the heavy side, glad you found a way to reduce it to 5 lbs.,generic Sportshooter. 5 lbs is very decent combat/range trigger pull.

i'll convert to lbs or lbs/in next time to make things easier.
the 7.7 lbs basically felt like something was blocking the trigger which had to snap in half first for the pistol to fire.
not like a glass rod, more like a thick bottle of glass.
when dry firing with a snap cap it was very hard to to keep the sights on target when firing.
at 5 lbs is feels natural, now i can predict exactly when it fires and the sights stay on target.
feels like a completely different gun, it went from a normal turd to a nice turd
also happy that contrary to other cp1's mine eats all ammo it is fed without a complaint.

 

[Jim Watson]

It would make a very futuristic cinema prop, though.