Who keeps record of serial numbers?

[CajunBass]

I've done a number of face to face sales/purchases over the years. I've never bothered to ask for or offer a BOS. If someone wants one, or asks me to sign one, I don't mind. It's always a matter of "I Joe Blow sold my Colt Patterson S/N 1 to CajunBass on 2/30/99". No real personal date other than a name. Then a scribble or two that might or might not be signatures.

I figure a handwritten BOS is worth almost as much as the paper it's written on. I could write a BOS showing I sold a gun to Sara Brady if I wanted to.

 

[Squeaky Wheel]

Do the Feds ask for the firearm's serial number when the dealer calls in for NICS checks? If so, why?

 

[CajunBass]

Do the Feds ask for the firearm's serial number when the dealer calls in for NICS checks? If so, why?

No. All they're told is "handgun" or "longgun."

 

[Havok7416]

The serial number and description of every gun i've owned in the past 40 years is in a database. The name of the person the gun was sold/traded to is there.

+1 here except for the 40 years part (I'm not that old).

 

[303tom]

Even if I sell something off-book, (I) still keep a record of it................

 

[abq87120]

I've sold a gun as a private citizen to another in two separate transactions. I created a bill of sale that recorded the guns' information as well as both the buyer's driver's license info and mine. I'm 67 and will probably keep these records until I die, lol.

 

[CountryUgly]

I keep personal records for my use i.e; insurance or to cover my rear. I've done more than a few FTF some with a BOS some without. There was one instance that a BOS was useful. The chief said he needed some proof of ownership for me to get my gun back out of the evidence locker.

 

[Orion8472]

Well, I am taking two guns to the gunshow this weekend. One I filled out form 4473, and have printed out a [less than obtrusive] BOS for it. The other one I purchased FTF and will do so with it, provided they show their driver's license to make sure they are a resident of my state. If a CCW card, even better.

 

[22-rimfire]

The tracking is why some politicians want and states require transfers of all guns through a FFL dealer (or required reporting of a stolen gun) if there is no central data base. I doubt the information solves many crimes, but I suppose they could get lucky.

I do keep a record of the basic gun ID information for my own personal records including the serial number.

 

[il.bill]

How many people do you know that actually abide by those private to private transactions in Illinois?

I have a written record showing both seller's and buyer's name and FOID card number for every FTF firearm sale or purchase I make. As a resident of the State of Illinois, I am required to keep that information available for a number of years. Each Bill of Sale also shows the date the deal was made, as well as the date of actual delivery of the firearm, which must be 24 hours later for a long gun, and 72 hours later for a handgun.
If I break that law, I may lose my FOID card, and thus the 'right' to own / purchase firearms and ammo in Illinois (which, by the way, is also the only state in the union to currently have no provision for civilian concealed carry).

 

[nofishbob]

Maybe I am missing something about the reason people make and keep their bills of sale for private sales.

This is a self-made, non-legal document with no real way to verify its authenticity.

What is to stop anyone from just making a BOS years after the transaction?

I think it is worthwhile to keep records of your firearm's serial numbers for insurance/recovery purposes, but a BOS does not seem to be of much real value.

Bob

 

[Warp]

Maybe I am missing something about the reason people make and keep their bills of sale for private sales.

This is a self-made, non-legal document with no real way to verify its authenticity.

What is to stop anyone from just making a BOS years after the transaction?

I think it is worthwhile to keep records of your firearm's serial numbers for insurance/recovery purposes, but a BOS does not seem to be of much real value.

Bob

If you do it right you take their driver license/state photo ID/FOID card/carry license/whatever and you record the number as well as the name, address, etc. It is very unlikely that you would have the number otherwise. Besides, this isn't to be used as rock solid proof in a court of law, because you don't/won't need that. It is just in case somewhere down the line it is used in a crime or shows up somewhere. You can point them in the right direction. Maybe the person you sold it to then sold or gave it to somebody else, who then committed the crime, but they won't be able to find the perp unless you can point them to the next guy.

Although, like I said earlier, I've sold multiple firearms face to face and never recorded anything.

 

[Centurian22]

Wow, thank you to everyone sharing their input on the BOS question. Quite the spread of answers and this has shed light on angles I had not even thought of. I fear I may develop a double standard where I would want to do a BOS when selling but less willing to do one when buying without knowing the person or history of the gun. Fortunately, I don't expect to sell much and plan to purchase generally from LGS or online.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Maybe I am missing something about the reason people make and keep their bills of sale for private sales.

This is a self-made, non-legal document with no real way to verify its authenticity.

What is to stop anyone from just making a BOS years after the transaction?

I think it is worthwhile to keep records of your firearm's serial numbers for insurance/recovery purposes, but a BOS does not seem to be of much real value.

Bob

It is a VERY legal document, it may be easy to dispute it's veracity, but it IS a legal transfer of ownership. The less info the harder it is to track everything down.

Take a recipt, that IS A LEGAL BILL OF SALE
it doesn't say who bought it (but many do these days as stores track your spending habits)
all it says, is who sold it, where and for how much.
AND that is accepted by insurance (along with other proof generally) and the cops as you having owned said item.

so, nope sorry bud you got it ALL wrong.


A Notary Public in the US (they work drastically different other places)
ONLY verifies that the individuals signing are who they say they are.
this is not a legal requirement for a contract and many many contracts and other legal doc are signed, many many government documents and forms are signed with a single signature, or are counter hacked, possible even witnessed by a 3rd party.

Hell you can sign you taxes with an X (indicating that you are unable to read or write)
and have to 'people who know you' verify that you signed the doc.

I successfully sued a ex-roommate who screwed me over on a vehicle I bought from him using a just signed bill of sale
it stood up in bankruptcy court, so I'd say they are rather 'legal'

 

[nofishbob]

Shadow 7D, I thought we are talking about private sales, specifically in locations that do not require a formal BOS for these transactions, not receipts when purchased by a store.

I have nothing to hide, but if a seller asks to do anything more than LOOK at my ID/CHL I walk away.

Why make a pseudo-legal document when the Gov does not require one?

Like I said, I may just be uninformed.

Bob

 

[otasan56]

I definitely do. Which remind me, I have to update mine.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Why make a pseudo-legal document when the Gov does not require one?

If a person chooses to walk when recording such info, well, whatever dude, you will go on the list. So, NEVER buy from a C&R, as you WILL have to furnish all that info to sell or buy from them, my question is:
What do YOU have to fear?
you give more information in filling out a raffle ticket.

Oh, BTW, it's not 'pseudo', it is a legal document, if it was pseudo, why, they could simply state that NO transfer of ownership happened. It either IS or it ISN'T, and the person who decides that is the Judge, IAW all applicable rules and laws.

Just cause you may not, in your paranoid way, like it, doesn't change what it is, maybe you would accept it as binding if you were required to give a thumb print in blood???

Oh, and a BOS actually can protect you TOO, say officer Barney Fife pulls you over and in the process of trampling on your 4th amendment, decides to run your gun, and it comes up stolen. Now you are on the hook for receiving stolen property. And who did you get it from, "some dude..." OK, have fun with that.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

In North Carolina the buyer is supposed to get a purchase permit from the Sheriff even for a FTF transaction. That way the buyer has the backround check down before the purchase. There is no more red tape then that but I seriously doubt few if any do this for a private transaction.

They say it is to protect the seller from selling to a "prohibitted person" by accident. Sounds reasonable I guess.

If a particular firearm would be, traced back to me as the original purchaser, and I sold it to someone I didn't know and they had a prior felony against them and/or used it in a crime,
I could be arrested for selling a gun to a fellon or even aiding and abetting in the crime the buyer committed. Especially if he used the firearm in the crime.
I don't know what the odds of something like this happening but with my luck it would happen to me.

I keep full records of all my guns and gun transactions FTF and other wise as a but cover also.

 

[The-Reaver]

I keep a record of my own stuff. In fact I think its time I update it. =)

 

[nofishbob]

Shadow 7D, I can see that you feel strongly about this and have given these issues a lot of thought.

Before you disparage my views further, please lets just agree to disagree.

I always follow the law here in Texas, and I am comfortable with any risks I may incur.

Bob

 

[HankB]

Federal law requires FFL's to keep copies of their 4473's for 20 years, right?

So . . . any idea of how many FFL's shred them after the 20 years expire?

How about the "biggies" like Cabela's?

 

[Pat M]

Well, when NY passes the microstamping bill, the serial number will be right there on the ground at the crime scene.

 

[MICHAEL T]

I bought a 1911 in 1969 in Ga while in Military . I sold it in 1974 in Co. to another GI who was getting out .

1975 had FBI at my apt. door , asking about pistol . I told them I had sold it . I did of course ask why . Seems it was used and recovered in a bank robbery in Seattle. A coast to coast 1911 . We went to base and I went thru sigh out log till I found his name . Don't remember name but lived in Mo.

Never heard any more about it. I have bought and sold many guns ovre the years That only one I was ever questioned about I buy sell and trade no paper kept or wanted.

 

[wv109323]

In my area there was a known type of firearm used in a crime. It was a Marlin .22 Mag rifle. The police went to all known FFL dealers in the surrounding area and searched their 4473 forms , looking for who bought that type rifle.

 

[auditor]

My son had his Glock M22 stolen from his truck. He reported it to Sheriff. He figured it was in Mexico. About a year later, the local PD called and asked if could prove the gun was his and if he wanted it back. He's still waiting to get it back from the local PD. Some red tape involved. Fortunately, he had the receipt from the dealer and had recorded the S/N. The local PD was able to find him via the stolen gun database. Word is the guy who stole it won't be seeing daylight for a while.