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Who likes to lose? Then vote!

Discussion in 'Activism' started by gdcpony, Nov 2, 2018.

  1. gdcpony

    gdcpony Member

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    With so many state elections coming up and arguably more at stake than in 2016, I figure a call to vote belongs in the activism page. Those who disagree, will find out when Congress and so many governors are anti-gun. So I post something I posted a while back (April). I sit in Norway now but have already sent in my ballot. It has another form of "activism" in the second half, but the Voting part is what matters now. Get out there and get your friends out there too.


    To my fellow gun owners:

    What follows is hard to type and will be harder to read. We all sit behind the key board or staring at a phone where we can speak our minds and, within reason, not worry about reprimand or having to carry through on our assertions.

    I love stats and probabilities and the likelihood of something happening. At least usually I do. Not so much recently though. I have been looking at (and with a purely objective view) the position we as owners of firearms are in. Well, it comes out like this. WE ARE LOSING! And to make it worse, it is no longer bit by bit, but chunks by chunks.

    You may sit there and say “how can that be when the ‘gun friendly’ party is in control of the federal government” but it is true. In fact, we are losing faster than prior to the election. We are losing in the forum of public opinion, the legislative arena, and the courts.

    I looked and looked and have yet to see one major victory we have scored. Hearing conservation act? Nope. National reciprocity? Yeah right. The end to "Gun Free Zones" (which are killing Americans). I wish! I have found a couple minor little successful defenses, but no victories. Let me know if I am wrong. I would love to be proven wrong on this. What I do see are us losing hard on state and local levels. Age limits, bans, confiscations, new restrictions and registrations. Heller might as well as never happened with recent rulings backing the bans and restrictions in place. We have all read them, seen them, many are now experiencing them.

    I sit on temporary orders to training in California. I had to leave behind several firearms that make me a felon here. And now there are more areas I must pray I don’t get orders to almost monthly. I wonder if my home state of Ohio will soon join the list. Will we soon be worried about whether attaching a collapsible stock to a lever gun makes it illegal? Do I need to register my Handi-Rifle as an “assault rifle” because it’s black?

    A personal projection- take it or leave it- I worked out says we will see a AWB again in less than 10 years. Complete with Mag limits and with registration attached. Confiscation will be 3 years after that. “Assault Weapons” first of course, then those weapons (I am thinking many PRS guns fit this realm) with features that make them tactical in nature. Of course, this could be avoided if by then 60% of the states and 75% of the cities of 100k or more in population have already instituted such. That would delay it until the second term of the next president if things keep going the way they are.

    Now you can sit behind your key board and cry “Molon Labe!” all you want. And I am sure some will resist. However, I know that unless organized on a national level and funded, it will be crushed isolated instances. Most will surrender them, move away to the ever-shrinking safe zones (yeah, I used that phrase intentionally), or hide them away. All of which make the grabbers happy. You do resist forcefully and the image of the “gun nut” is reinforced and you give them reason to further any more rules.

    We have no media to speak of on our side. Look at the hit count of pro-gun and anti-gun videos. 10-1 against us in the ones I found on simple searches of Google and YouTube. Look at sponsors dropping anyone who stands against gun control. The grabbers also have foreign support as we are pretty much the thorn in the side of the UN and their push for gun control. BBC and such will always side with them. So we become further shoved into a corner with no voice to be heard. Even sporting goods stores and department stores are leaving our side for safer waters.

    How many actually listened to the speeches the kids made during their march after Florida? It was hard, but I got about 75% of them. These are the voters of the future and they will vote. They will keep marching. They will convince their parents (or grown up buddies more or less) to vote as well. Their emotional lines will not be reasoned away with logic. Many of us have tried that approach and failed. The only real way to fight them is either to march ourselves (wonder what half a million AR carrying marchers going through the capital would cause DC to do?) or simply vote our side.

    It does kind of baffle me though. Depending on where you read, as these numbers are hardly accurate in most surveys, there are over 100 million gun owners in the US. That is a low number of estimates. So that means we have 100 million votes. I am not talking the national votes. Those mean little in the whole scheme of things as we are fast learning. After all, the largest impact we are feeling and have felt has been regulations at the lower levels. So where are our votes in those elections? I have figured that local and state elections often see less than 20% of the voters out. Should sound good for us, except that we are showing up just as little. Chances to swarm the liberals that seek our rights are being squandered. A vote is a vote and a thousand or maybe a hundred (or even 10 in my town) can make a huge difference in a local election. It also has the benefit of being legal.

    Still reading? Great! Maybe we can do something about this?

    Now comes the roughest part. We shoot ourselves in the foot in sooo many ways! Not by being unsafe, but by being… well being us. We stand off and call them “libtards” and “Nazis” and any number of names. Well, ok that didn’t work in my school days to solve a problem, so I doubt it does now. It just ticks people off. If 1/3 of Americans own guns, then we have 2/3 to convince it’s not something to fear. We lose many to the other extreme, but we also lose every time we sink to that level. I am proud to say I have taken dozens of non-shooters to the range. And I helped them pick out a firearm later or even prior to. Since we are bound to hang out with nothing but like-minded people, we get little positive exposure to the “middle ground.” We need to change that person by person. If each shooter took one neutral person to the range and they bought a first gun we would double our numbers! And this says nothing about the fun you had doing it or the new friend you have made.

    Think about the one time a complete newbie came up either online or in person and asked for advice. “No, man, don’t do that.” “You get what you pay for.” I personally don’t care if they have an Anderson lower with the cheapest Chinese handguard on their AR. We now have their support if they like it. A Savage Axis with the cheap factory optic? Hey, let’s make it work for you! Another shooter. A pawn shop Llama .45? Does it go bang? If so, lets hit the range.

    Then you have our own divisions. Luckily, I am eclectic in my preferences of firearms. Levers, pumps, revolvers, bolts, semi’s. Love them all! However, like most I have my preferences. I don’t own a bump stock. Don’t see the point in a binary trigger either, but I know that banning those is just a step. It is a step towards stripping further our right (1934, 1968, 1986, 1994 ring any bells?) . So the guy who has a closet full of shotguns and no AR and doesn’t care if they are banned needs to understand that the 11-87 might be next.

    A long read, and I apologize, but there needs to be a serious change. We won’t make changes with memes and key board machoism. I hope you still aren’t on the “It’ll never happen” team either. Because it can and it might. It takes a little effort to change things.

    I ran into a family out collecting rocks (dad was an amateur geologist) last weekend while hunting ‘yotes. I could have ridden past them on my dirt bike and then they might have heard a shot echo down the canyons if I got one to come in. Instead, I stopped to let them know what I was up to so they would not be worried. They were definitely leaning towards the left you could tell as we talked. I had the HandiRifle over my shoulder and the daughter and mother feared this little youth size single shot rifle literally because it was black. I talked with them (luckily, I knew the geo-history of the area) and in half an hour the wife and daughter had sent a couple .243 rounds at the rocks on the mountain side. The dad said he would buy one if it weren’t so hard in CA since it looked like they had fun. Maybe he will, maybe he won’t, but at least a small victory was won in our favor. I think if we want to turn things around, we need more of these and less “Molon Labe.”
     
  2. Hokie_PhD

    Hokie_PhD Member

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    We have a Senator who anytime there is a shooting screams for more gun control. He’s now quite on the issue and his ads say he’s for “common senses” solutions.

    To him, disarming anyone but those he approves of (police, his security, etc) is his common sense solution.

    So yes I’ll be voting and I’ll be voting against him. In fact I’m happy that his opponent is pro 2nd Amendment. An example of the kind of person we need on this issue.

    So not to be political as there isn’t a choice.

    The choice is vote for pro 2nd Amendment candidates or we lose our rights.
     
  3. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    Speaking as a resident of Virginia's 11th congressional district, I have a couple of observations:
    1. The results in the 11th district, and statewide, are a foregone conclusion. Therefore my vote will make no difference whatsoever. This is true in the majority of states and districts throughout the country. In any given cycle, only in a few places are the elections competitive. You are lucky, I guess, if you live in one of those competitive districts.
    2. The voters' choice rarely boils down to a single issue. Corey Stewart is good on guns but he's anathema on the immigration issue (for example). He's also going to lose spectacularly. And I say that not particularly liking Tim Kaine.
     
  4. Hokie_PhD

    Hokie_PhD Member

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    Well that attitude is why “people” like Kaine win. Get out and vote. The longer he’s in office the harder it’ll be to get rid of him. And if everyone with your attitude voted maybe we have a shot at getting rid of him.

    Then if Stewart doesn’t represent us to our satisfaction we can oust him.

    You see that’s the point of our Bill of Rights.
    The 2nd protects the others, and exercising them protects them all.

    So always vote. Plus in a race with less people voting your vote COUNTS MORE. AND DONT FORGET we’ve had races decided by coin flip due to a tie. So VOTE
     
  5. kmw1954

    kmw1954 Member

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    As stated in my topic below. Wisconsin Nov. 6 we have a candidate that states she is a gun owner yet consistently votes anti-gun and for Sensible Gun Control. She is now leading the polls by double digits and looks as though she will be reelected. Also unfortunately her opponent is a neutral on the gun rights front.

    Next, being in Paul Ryan's district we will be voting for his replacement. I did not vote for or support Mr. Ryan on his first run but soon changed my mind after watching his record and policies. Sadly if he were running again today I would have a hard time again supporting him. It was time for him to go anyways.

    We may not be able to change our US Senate seat but we can retain our Governor and gain a new young Representative that isn't beholding to anyone and supports the 2nd..
     
  6. Fine Figure of a Man

    Fine Figure of a Man Member

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    You're right if voting on election day is the extent of your involvement.

    I will be working the polls Tuesday calling any 2A supporters that haven't voted by 5 or 6PM. Get out and vote, don't make me call you.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 4, 2018
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  7. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    I cannot vote for the neoconfederate Corey Stewart under any circumstances. As much as I dislike Kaine, he's ten times better than Stewart. I blame the Republicans for nominating a fringe lunatic as their standard bearer. If they had nominated a moderate I would have voted for him. Support for the 2nd Amendment only takes me so far.
     
  8. Hokie_PhD

    Hokie_PhD Member

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    No worries. I vote in the primaries, I vote in all elections and I do all I can to get people on our side to vote.

    I’ve told anyone that will listen that the time to start working on the next election isn’t in November, or even September but the day after Election Day. We have to stay engaged. We have to work to have candidates who will win and who will work for us and our values. And simply casting a vote isn’t all that’s needed.

    So thanks for working the polls.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 4, 2018
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  9. Hokie_PhD

    Hokie_PhD Member

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    Sorry I’ll respectfully disagree. Kaine and his ANTIFA son are an embarrassment to Va. And I’m with you, that the GOP should have picked a better candidate. I supported and voted for Nick Frijitas but it is what it is.

    As I say, one of is right and I hope it’s me. As if Kaine gets his way neither of us will have a right to disagree and defend our rights. Now I hope that’s extreme but with the left going openly socialist it may not be far.

    Anyway, I can’t support anyone that isn’t Pro 2nd.
     
  10. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Folks, this thread got way too far into politics and religion and had to be trimmed. Please follow the THR and Activism rules.


    While we point out that VOTING ISN'T ACTIVISM (working on getting as many others as possible to vote on behalf of the 2A is), I'm compelled to point out that every pro2A vote moves the needle just a little on the scale. Sure we may know that there's no chance of a win in a given election, but reducing the margin reduces the "mandate" that an Anti claims. Abandoning the vote because you can't win ignores the fact that, while polarized, politics is still a spectrum and incremental change still benefits the pro2A community. Get EVERYONE that feels hopeless out to help make the Antis see that they don't have overwhelming support for their positions (and make others aware that their margin of support is narrower than it would appear if WE SIT THIS ONE OUT).

    On another point made, there are a also a spectrum of other issues we have to acknowledge as important nationally and locally that people value and the 2A is one of them. If we don't make an effort to influence the candidates to broaden their positions to support the 2A while supporting those issues important to us then we end up with grossly polarized offerings when elections come around. Voting isn't Activism, but working the political system to get those people with more closely aligned positions to yours into the running is. Don't surrender the political process to the over simplified candidates. Instead work for the ones thinking about running or running in the primaries so we end up with fewer end of the spectrum choices.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
  11. SilentStalker

    SilentStalker Member

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    What’s the point of voting when specific people steal the votes? I’ve pretty much lost faith in the system and have come to the conclusion that it’s being used against us, purposely manipulated. Call me crazy but the way the midterms shaped up, I’d say conservatives and libertarians have one more cycle to be around withthe amount of nonsense going on. I’ve seen quite a few states lately that were always hardcore red either turn blue or at least go purple recently. It’s only a matter of time.
     
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  12. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    What we saw in the midterms was what I pointed out at #10, people motivated or outright helped those that might not have gotten off the couch to get out and vote.
    They worked to get people on their side up and out and moved the needle close enough for marginal wins or to cause recounts. It is just sour grapes, or perhaps shame, to claim elections were "stolen" (claims being made by D and R losers right now). The truth is that you can only make such claims when you've let things get too close in the voting.

    This is why sitting it out thinking there's no point or that there's no need is such a mistake.
     
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  13. Fine Figure of a Man

    Fine Figure of a Man Member

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    Capitulation is not an option.
     
  14. SilentStalker

    SilentStalker Member

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    I respectfully disagree. I don’t think the margins were as close as some think. I think there is active stealing and fudging going on. Look at Broward County in FL. The main official over the election was convicted of tampering with the elections in 2016. Look it up. Yet she is somehow allowed to continue to oversee elections and they all of a sudden found enough votes to get close enough to a recount? Nope. You guys keep believing the system works. I think we are being played.

    Another way of looking at it:

    A few weeks ago, over 300 million lottery tickets were sold in a matter of about 4 days. Within hours of the drawing lottery officials knew how many winning tickets were sold and where they were sold, down to specific store locations.

    Four days after voting closed, some officials didn’t know how many people voted, where they voted, how they voted, who they voted for, or what the accurate results are.

    Perhaps the US election system is broken on purpose. Think about that for a minute.
     
  15. silvermane_1

    silvermane_1 Member

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    Lest us not forget voter fraud that is so rampant these days.
     
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  16. Jack B.

    Jack B. Member

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    Been voting pro 2nd Amendment for many years. If you don't vote because you are skeptical of the system. That's up to you to give up that right. What other rights are you willing to give up? I don't give up my rights for any reason.
     
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  17. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    The 2nd Amendment is a major determinant in my voting decisions, but it's not the only consideration. I tend to vote strategically, with a hefty dose of skepticism. Let's say a clown is running for office, jumping up and down saying how much he likes guns. First of all, I'm old enough not to trust anything a politician says. Secondly, if the clown gets elected and messes up royally, that's a severe detriment to the RKBA cause going forward. Maybe it's better to support someone who's more moderate on guns, but saner. Voting decisions are complicated. Sometimes it's better not to choose between two bad options, but abstain altogether. (Especially if you know your vote won't count anyway, due to local political realities.) That's what I did in 2016.
    "Rampant voter fraud" is largely a myth. The American electoral system is more honest than that in most other countries. Crying "fraud" is usually sour grapes by the losers.
     
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  18. Drail

    Drail Member

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    Well Texas alone just announced that they found over 60,000 fraudulent votes (dead people and non citizens) in the last election and that's not a myth. The system is rigged and has been for many years. Every time the Democrats lose they suddenly "find" some warehouse full of boxes of "uncounted votes". If you sit down to play poker with people that you KNOW are going to cheat and they're VERY GOOD at it - you will never win a hand. Twain said "if voting could actually change anything - they would never allow it".
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
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  19. P5 Guy

    P5 Guy Member

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    "Those that vote decide nothing, we who count the votes decide everything."
    Brenda Snipes
     
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  20. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    Texas walked that back already. You're propagating old information. It turned out that there was no evidence of 60,000 fraudulent votes in Texas.
    Right-wingers like to say that "the United States is not a democracy." They are contradicted by Republican presidents such as Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, and Ronald Reagan. (Reagan: "Democracy is worth dying for, because it's the most deeply honorable form of government ever devised by man.")

    The Constitution does not have to mention "democracy" for the U.S. to in fact be a democracy. Democratic norms have always been aspirational in this country. A "republic" refers to the structure (namely, that it's not a monarchy) while a "democracy" refers to the political philosophy underlying the structure (rule by the consent of the governed). Apples and oranges. The two can and do coexist. Furthermore, "democracy" refers to rule by the "demos," which in ancient Greece was the organized body of the citizenry. This was in marked contrast to "ochlocracy," or mob rule. You are mischaracterizing democracy as mob rule, when in fact it was just the opposite.
     
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  21. SilentStalker

    SilentStalker Member

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    Wow. People think that the people still hold real power in this country? What about election (found) votes in FL that just popped up and were enough to get a recount? Do you think that was just a coincidence? Read my post from above about the lady that overseen that election? Does it not seem a bit odd to you that whenever its close and the dems lose, they seem to all of a sudden find votes that were somehow missing? I have witnessed this multiple times now myself. Is it possible? Sure. But, it seems to be happening much more frequently, too frequently for me to continue to have much faith in the system. There are other factors in that decision but I think the power of the people went away a long time ago. You will never be able to vote enough bad apples out at once to inflict enough needed change and because of that reason alone the system is failing. Its just going through the motions slowly.

    If you want real change, you have to get active on a local level.
     
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  22. silvermane_1

    silvermane_1 Member

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    Better yet use the "cartridge" box option, as the 4 boxes that keeps our republic afloat: soap box, jury box, ballot box, and cartidge box.
     
  23. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    That's insurrectionism, and we don't want to go there.
     
  24. silvermane_1

    silvermane_1 Member

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    Well let's see here, use the "soap box option" which is quickly becoming "hate speech/thought crime" when you talk about the ideals that this once great republic was founded on, there's the "jury box" which most try to get out of jury duty and even those that don't, the jury selection wants the lowest common denominator, the "ballot box" option, well we already been over that, and finally the "cartridge box" option, a very bad option especially if you relish the thought of living in a totalitarian society.
     
  25. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Better yet??? Better than getting involved on the local level??? That's insane.
    The fundamentals are to start at your local level and work up from there in making changes you want seen in governance. Your so called "cartridge box" option is a worst case not "better".
     
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