Who Needs 450 Bushmaster When There's The 45-70?
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Ohen Cepel
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Likely nothing the 45-70 can't do and I would keep it especially if you like a lever gun. The Bushmaster is nice if you're an AR person or want a bolt gun at a reasonable price.
Feed in an AR15, and that's about it. The 45/70 is an outstanding cartridge, because of its trajectory it is short range, but it can be reloaded to outstanding accuracy. A bud of mine set a 300 yard Blackpowder record with a ten shot group under 3 inches. That is amazing.
In a strong action, like a bolt gun or a single shot, the 45/70 can be reloaded to 50,000+ psia and then it is at 458 Win Mag levels. One real stomper at both ends of the weapon.
The American's love of the AR15 has resulted shoe horning all sorts of cartridges in the Matty Mattel rifle, and yet the overall length limits of the action, and the pressure limits of the locking mechanism, have always resulted in tepid cartridges. I mean the big, big, big, next step are 6.8 cartridges that are just at 30-30 performance levels.
That's a truly amazing record with black powder, I'd be lucky to hit paper. Having shot the 458 Win Mag I'd pass on that at my age. Sir, would your conclusion be the 450 Bushmaster is just another AR marketing ploy in a round that won't stand the test of time?
marksman13
Member
The only thing that a 450 Bushmaster, 458 SOCOM and 50 Beowulf bring to the table is the ability to give similar ballistics to the 45/70 out of an AR-15 action. That alone, is pretty impressive. If you are happy with your lever action, there’s no need to buy another rifle. Your 45/70 actually does everything better than the 450 Bushmaster as far as the cartridges are concerned. Some people just prefer semiautos and I don’t know of a semiauto 45/70.
I just ordered two Ruger American Ranch rifles, one in 7.62 X 39 and one in 5.56 and noticed they made them in 450 Bushmaster and also "350 Legend" (what the heck?) That's what got me looking at the Bushmaster. Ya gotta fiddle around at the loading bench to get "performance approaching 45-70", with in itself isn't a bad thing, but the 45-70 and "fiddling around" gives you so much more. As for the 350 Legend, guess if you want a "sausage" round for your AR that's the one or if you live in Michigan or Ohio and want to take advantage of the new laws for deer season and not use a shotgun. Thanks for the reply.
My wife would kick my butt if I was shooting a semiauto 45-70. She thinks I spend too much reloading for the Marlin
Fine Figure of a Man
Member
I have and like both. Marlin Guide Gun and an AR of my own design. I have killed several deer with each and all with one shot. Never thought of comparing the two. The 450 B is more like a hot 44 mag that works in an AR.
If I am walking the AR is more convenient, from a stand I prefer the Marlin.
If I am walking the AR is more convenient, from a stand I prefer the Marlin.
sevt_chevelle
Member
I have no want or really desire for a lever action. I can build an AR to suit me, can't do that with a lever. With the recent law changes in Iowa, I can hunt with my AR and the 450 is on the approved list and there is nothing walking the woods in Iowa that the bushy can't drop.
I can reload cheaper 45 acp 230 FMJ and have a nice warm plinker round, can one buy 45/70 projectiles for 9 cents?
In states like Iowa with straight walled restrictions, the popularity of the 450 has exploded. The stores I visit sell well more 450 guns and ammo then 45/70.
I can reload cheaper 45 acp 230 FMJ and have a nice warm plinker round, can one buy 45/70 projectiles for 9 cents?
In states like Iowa with straight walled restrictions, the popularity of the 450 has exploded. The stores I visit sell well more 450 guns and ammo then 45/70.
earlthegoat2
Member
Before all these states started allowing straight wall cartridge rifles in lieu of shotguns, there was no reason to get a 450 Bushmaster.
Now midwesterners are buying Ruger American Ranch rifles in 450 BM by the bucket load and a truck load of AR uppers too.
That is why you see so much 450 BM influence. MI, OH, IL, IN, IA....maybe a few others. Whack hunting regulations. 350 Legend, IMO, was developed purely for straight wall state hunting. Making it so it fit an AR just increased market share a bit.
450 BM was a very niche thing until the hunting regs in the Midwest changed and it happened to fall nearly inside those regs.
Now midwesterners are buying Ruger American Ranch rifles in 450 BM by the bucket load and a truck load of AR uppers too.
That is why you see so much 450 BM influence. MI, OH, IL, IN, IA....maybe a few others. Whack hunting regulations. 350 Legend, IMO, was developed purely for straight wall state hunting. Making it so it fit an AR just increased market share a bit.
450 BM was a very niche thing until the hunting regs in the Midwest changed and it happened to fall nearly inside those regs.
ClickClickD'oh
Member
Drop 9 pigs in as few seconds.
My 1895G is one of my favorite rifles, and still gets the nod when I'm doing spot and stalk hunts, but if I'm hunting over bait, the .450BM gets the call.
Trey Veston
Member
I wanted a handy rifle around 8lbs with around 10 round capacity and capable of taking down everything from bears to pissed off moose. An AR in .450 Bushmaster is just the ticket.
I have only .45-70 rifle and it is the complete opposite of the AR...
I have only .45-70 rifle and it is the complete opposite of the AR...
I constantly rail about insignificant differences between cartridges, by class, and the cartridge du jour. If one opens the book Cartridges of the World, it is just impossible to find a real niche that some legacy cartridge does not fill. Reminds me of the Cola Wars. The differences between Coke and Pepsi are extremely slight, they are after all, just carbonated flavored sugar water, and yet there are those who are so loyal to the brands, so adamant there are significant and telling differences, that they are rude to others. The same is true for each and every cartridge in the book Cartridges of the World.
The cartridge du jour concept is driven by businesses need to maximize profits now and the fact that the marketplace is populated by people extremely susceptible to suggestion. One good advertising campaign and hoards are running screaming to the local gun store. Of course the 450 Bushmaster does something. It puts a 45 caliber slug in a AR15 action. Will that be enough to create a long and enduring cartridge?, heck if I know. I never predicted the addicting nature of personal electronic devices, in fact, I am the worst person at predicting the future I know. I am totally inept, wrong more than I am right. But I do know that due to the semiconductor, development times have shortened and costs have decreased, so much so, that it is extremely easy and inexpensive to develop a new cartridge and firearm. So businesses can develop a cartridge du jour quickly and cheaply, and throw it at the wall to see if it sticks. If you buy a cartridge du jour, I think the most important thing to do is buy an adequate supply of cartridge cases, for in time, as the round fades away, you won't be able to buy brass. It has taken me years to find new 257 Roberts brass, and that is an excellent, well established cartridge, it has been around forever and written about forever. But it seldom comes in on the tide.
jdh
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My wife would kick my butt if I was shooting a semiauto 45-70. She thinks I spend too much reloading for the Marlin
The answer to both of the above:
troy fairweather
Member
You need to find a Siamese mauser like mine. It my favorite 45/70 I have owned, a nice single shot is nice to. I have loaded some stupid hot loads but found there's not much need with the 458s.
I hope to find another action one day to build a sister rifle in a flatter shooting round for deer.
There was one here i tried to buy, guy wouldnt sell it......Thought about building one from one of those random actions that shows up on GB from time to time, but its just too pricey
troy fairweather
Member
Be cheaper to do a p14 in 458 American or 458wm.
or a Ruger American, Savage, or any other nut gun
A short action .458 would be pretty slick....or maybe a .458WSSM.....anyway, neither here nor there in this conversation. But it dose illustrate that there are better options than the .45-70 for a bolty.
Varminterror
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This pitiful whining is about a decade late. It’s here, it has been here. Don’t want one? Don’t buy one.
MTMilitiaman
Member
Easy, the .45-70 Marlin can't fit on the same carbine I keep for home defense. The .450 Bushmaster is a big bore AR cartridge. It appeals to people who maybe have a 5.56 that they keep around for defense, but want something bigger to go after deer, hogs, bear, ect. They can have a .450 Bushmaster upper shipped to their door, or build one in their garage, and then simply push two pins and swap upper receivers in about 20 seconds. The .45-70 also can't be easily found in a semi-automatic.
Have both. Love both. My heart lies with my 45-70. It “can” shoot heavier bullets. And if I can line the pigs up, I have no doubt the 405gr hardcasts @LoonWulf sent me (thanks again) would blow through 4-5 pigs in one shot. And the Marlin is easier to carry in the woods. I just don’t find AR’s comfortable to carry. Yet I own 5. Go figure.
The 450 is a great cartridge for those that want big bore performance in the AR platform. But it is limited by the pressures it can handle in that platform. However, I’m not upset at all that I own mine. The 450 is here to stay because of the new hunting regs. And that’s a great thing. That fact alone will put a very significant hurt on the 458 SoCo and 50 Beowulf.
Your Marlin 45-70 is going to cost you at least $500. More like $650-$1,100 depending on what you want. I can build a 450 AR for less than $400.
The 450 is a great cartridge for those that want big bore performance in the AR platform. But it is limited by the pressures it can handle in that platform. However, I’m not upset at all that I own mine. The 450 is here to stay because of the new hunting regs. And that’s a great thing. That fact alone will put a very significant hurt on the 458 SoCo and 50 Beowulf.
Your Marlin 45-70 is going to cost you at least $500. More like $650-$1,100 depending on what you want. I can build a 450 AR for less than $400.
troy fairweather
Member
Just took some pictures of the 45/70, I hope to rust blue in one day. I have to replace the limbsaver pad and one day I knocked out the bead on the front sight . I think a earlier Remington rear sight would look better to.
Gtscotty
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Totally agree. I don't have one, don't really want one, but I see why other folks might. I'll never understand all the whining on this forum about having too many options.
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