Who needs a front sight?

[BSA1]

Probably the highest reward a gun maker can receive is when their product is used as it is designed for to save lives.

In a recent hospital shooting incident having a gun was enough;

"Delaware County District Attorney Jack Whelan said a mentally troubled Richard Plotts walked into the Psychiatric Unit on the third floor of the building with his caseworker, 53-year-old Theresa Hunt of Philadelphia.

Plotts and Hunt went into Dr. Lee Silverman's office, and an argument erupted.

Hunt shut the door and called police. Seconds later there was gunfire. When it was over, Hunt was dead and Plotts and Silverman wounded.

Investigators believe Plotts shot Silverman in the head, inflicting a graze wound.

They believe the doctor then pulled out his own gun, firing several times. Plotts was critically injured, hit twice in the torso and once in the arm."

What is most surprising is the Doctor used a Seecamp 32;

"Crouching behind his chair, Silverman pulled a .32-caliber semi-automatic Seecamp from his pocket and attempted to get to the door. When Plotts began shooting at him, Silverman returned fire, emptying his gun".

Seecamp is very specific about what their gun is designed for and that is why they don't put a front sight on it. Mine literally disappears in the front pocket of my jeans and once my c.c. permit finally arrives will become my always gun.

This incident again proves that it is the person behind the trigger that determines the outcome.

http://gawker.com/doctor-patient-exchange-gunfire-in-deadly-penn-hospit-1610790918

http://www.delcotimes.com/general-n...ting-suspect-to-face-1st-degree-murder-charge

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

A .32 obviously will do...

I'd like to think I'd have hit him more than 3X *but* the Doctor survived due to having a gun and knowing how/when to use it. Thanks for sharing the story. Nice to see other .32 aficionados out there!

VooDoo

 

[FireInCairo]

Every time I try to point-shoot a gun at the range they're sufficiently combat-accurate. That's good enough for personal protection. I think more people should be taught to point shoot so they realize it's an option when seconds count.

 

[RustyShackelford]

It should be noted....

The doctor in the event shot the subject multiple times at a CQB range.

If you or anyone were hit several times with a handgun caliber bullet at close range, you wouldn't be mobile or able to move quickly I'm sure.
It would be interesting to learn what type of pistol ammunition was used in the .32acp weapon.

When the George Zimmerman event first took place in 2012(Sanford FL), I had it in my head that he used a Glock pistol or S-A XD for some reason. The gun was in fact a Kel-Tec PF9 with Seller & Ballot JHPs(9mm).

 

[TRX]

I just looked up Seecamp. I'd gotten the idea they'd faded away long ago, but the company is still around and selling pocket pistols.

 

[hso]

No one should assume any caliber makes one shot stops. While the .32 is not the best option for caliber the Seacamp in the doctor's pocket was the best option at the time since it was something he could and did carry.

The other thing to shy away from is the assumption that a front sight isn't needed. I'm a point shooting advocate and I teach point shooting and I wouldn't make such an extreme statement.

 

[Hometeached1]

Thanks for the info! I'm always wondering what type of gun/ammo was used when I read about stuff like this.

I think (and practice.) point shooting at closer range is a very viable option in a SD situation.

Edit: For me "point shooting" is silhouetting the handgun over the target, but I do also practice shooting from retention.

 

[BSA1]

The other thing to shy away from is the assumption that a front sight isn't needed. I'm a point shooting advocate and I teach point shooting and I wouldn't make such an extreme statement.

Oh don't get me wrong. I have proven to myself many times over that when I neglect proper sight alignment I can miss the target.

My point is in close quarters combat such as this use of the front sight isn't possible. What do you suppose the size of the Doctor's office is and the location of everybody in the room? Most likely we are only talking about a few feet.

The Seecamp is designed expressly for close quarters combat such as this. They are very blunt in their owners manual;

"It has no sights, as we do not encourage firearms misuse with the promises of non-existent capability. If you cannot hit your mark with a natural instinctive pointing of the gun in the direction of the target, and feel the need for sights, the LWS 32 is not the gun for you."

Although the self-appointed experts will nit-pick the Doctor's firearm and tactics to pieces in this incident the Seecamp was the perfect tool for concealed carry in the Doctor's workplace and for the task it was called upon to perform.

 

[hso]

The gun you have is always better than none and a gun designed to be easily carried is better for always having on you than one not.

The doctor almost certainly had to have a deep concealment pistol that would avoid detection in the hospital and the Seacamp is a proven performer.

 

[BLB68]

If you or anyone were hit several times with a handgun caliber bullet at close range, you wouldn't be mobile or able to move quickly I'm sure.

Only if one of those bullets finds the off switch or damages a structure important to movement. Plenty of people take multiple handgun shots at close range and then run for the hills. A while back, a guy took a full cylinder of .38s to the face when he broke into the wrong young lady's home and walked away from it.

 

[RustyShackelford]

I'm a bit leery of that.....

6 rounds of .38spl to the face sounds a bit far fetched.
I don't think anyone could "walk away" from that.
I did hear of a subject shot 6 times in the chest with a .357magnum 125gr JHP. The rounds went thru a refrigerator door first but struck the violent subject. The felon still continued to fight with LE officers for several minutes.
This was documented by gun-writer & tactics trainer; Chuck Taylor.

I also heard of a guy who was 6'06" shot once with a .22short by his estranged wife. The victim fell over & died at the scene.

Rusty

 

[BLB68]

Here ya go: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/georgia-mom-shoots-home-intruder-face-article-1.1234400

I believe it was a five shooter. Still, the results of shootings are often unpredictable.

 

[jerkface11]

Only if one of those bullets finds the off switch or damages a structure important to movement. Plenty of people take multiple handgun shots at close range and then run for the hills.

Does it matter how quickly they're running away? As long as they stop what they're doing and bug off it doesn't matter if they're crawling or sprinting.

 

[RustyShackelford]

I disagree.....

I disagree....
A wounded or injured subject is still dangerous.
Author, sworn LE officer & tactics trainer Massad Ayoob had a article detailing how a gunshot wounded subject recovered, got up, killed the female police officer who shot him, then expired at the scene.
A wounded subject who flees may not stop & say; "hey, Im really hurt, I'm gonna give up". More than likely they will keep shooting or fighting until they are either dead or subdued.
Now, an armed citizen or CCW could honestly say; I shot the crook & they fled but I didn't chase them. That I could see but a sworn LE officer would have a duty to stop the felon.

RS

 

[BLB68]

Does it matter how quickly they're running away? As long as they stop what they're doing and bug off it doesn't matter if they're crawling or sprinting.

I was responding to a very specific statement. Now, think again about what you've quoted in that context.

To answer your unrelated question: Doesn't matter to me, as long as they go away, no.

 

[1911 guy]

I once used the phrase, and was commended for it by a point shooting advocate and instructor, "Point shoot your way to a sight picture".

Point shooting and shooting from retention are needed skills. However, to deliberately handicap yourself by choosing an handgun that does not allow you the option of truly aimed fire, is a bit silly.

I'm thankful it ended well for the doctor, but how would it have ended if the deranged man had opened fire in a hallway with yards, not a few feet, between him and the shooter? More people would have died, possibly the doctor as well as the case worker.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Sounds like that puny .32 the Doctor had was better than nothing after all!

I'm in the market for the little Kel-Tec P32. Problem is I can't find one, and .32 ACP round these parts ain't so cheap.

Still, I'm glad the Doctor made it out safe!

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by RustyShackelford: A wounded or injured subject is still dangerous.

Of course.

A wounded subject who flees may not stop & say; "hey, Im really hurt, I'm gonna give up".

True.

More than likely they will keep shooting or fighting until they are either dead or subdued.

That may be true if he is being arrested--or it may not. But in an SD situation, the prudent defender would not want the suspect to "give up". Rather, one would want him to depart.

Now, an armed citizen or CCW could honestly say; I shot the crook & they fled but I didn't chase them. That I could see but a sworn LE officer would have a duty to stop the felon.

An armed citizen will very rarely have reason to give chase. It would be dangerous, and except under the rarest of circumstances, the use of additional force, and especially deadly force, would not be justified.

Best to get to safety and call for help.

 

[Al Thompson]

I find it pretty easy to ignore the sights if I don't need them, but I think it would be tough shooting if I needed sights and didn't have'em.

As Tom Givens has stated numerous times, the bad guy gets to pick how much target you get.

 

[Kleanbore]

^^^^

You nailed it, Al.

 

[george burns]

I find the front sight the most important part of the system when having to make quick shots on moving targets. All my guns have a front night sight. The rear night sight is almost never used in low to no light. If I can get my front sight on it, it's gone,

 

[Manny]

I have CT laser grips on my close quarters gun, a Ruger KLCR. I also plan on putting a tritium front sight, just haven't got it done yet. The use of sights my not be possible in a close encounter, or one from an awkward angle. Still I want to have them available.

Glad for the Doc he had that Seecamp as it got the job done for him, but I just don't trust small semi autos, nor do I care for the micro size guns that don't allow a secure firing grip. I place far more faith in "five for sure" in my concealed hammer snubby that is large enough to get a secure grip on.

Massad Ayoob has written several times of using a "hammerless" or bobbed hammer snubbie for a close quarters, last ditch gun and really convinced me to go that route when I was considering a Glock 26 for such a task. When I heard of George Zimmermans Keltec jamming after one shot, it just confirmed to me that Mas knew of what he spoke and that I had made the right selection is my choice of weapons.

 

[19-3Ben]

The other thing to shy away from is the assumption that a front sight isn't needed. I'm a point shooting advocate and I teach point shooting and I wouldn't make such an extreme statement.

Agreed. One thing that was a "take the lemons and make lemonade" type situation for me recently was last winter when the front sight on my 1911 flew off at the range. No idea what happened to it, but all of a sudden I had to front sight.
I thought "well I could just pack up and go home, but this is a training opportunity disguised as a problem!"
We never know how it will go down in real life, and what will malfunction. Practicing how to shoot with no sights, dead ejector, weak hand, weak eye, etc... is potentially lifesaving!

 

[DT Guy]

There's a reason that IPSC, back when it was still trying to be 'practical', named their member publication "Just Look Over the Slide And Point It".....



Larry

 

[Trent]

You can get to be very consistent & accurate with point shooting.

But > 15 yards, I'll still use that front sight every time.

Also, after the first shot or two, I'll be working to acquire it and use it.