Whooompf!!!... 45-70 Newbie

[bill97222]

Based upon one outing, my newly acquired Browing 1885 shoots 300 grain Federal factory loads listed at 1850 fps to point of aim at 50 yards.

Given that 45-70 ammo is expensive in general, along with the current shortage of both factory ammunition and reloading components, I had to venture far and wide to come up with ANY reloading options.

Suitable smokeless powders were truly unobtainable locally, but I have a store of black powder and black powder substitutes... so I went with 777.

I was able to obtain a box of 325 grain Hornady FTX's, but chose not to use them now... so I ventured farther from home and in a little rural gun shop I found two ancient boxes of 500 grain Hornady FMJ's.

Original 1873 munitions contained 70 grains of black powder behind a 500 grain lead cast bullet so I figured I was set.

Turns out that since you ought not heavily compress 777, I was limited to only 60 grains by volume... roughly 42.5 grains by weight... I loaded up 20 and headed out.

I expected a spirited recoil from launching such an enormous bullet... WHOOOFFF!!!... actually, it was like getting hit in the shoulder by a big old pillow... very pleasant to shoot.

I had expected an enormous cloud of smoke... not so much... not much more than my other black powder guns... and I'd have bet you at least 50 cents that a 500 grain bullet traveling at 1200 fps would shoot substantially lower than a 300 grain bullet at 1850 fps.

Huh... those big pills were hitting about 16" higher than the Federal factory loads... at 50 yards... yikes...

I'm not even sure I have enough adjustment in the sights to make up for that, if I chose to do so.

I have a Ruger SP 101 that shoots 38 specials way low but comes right on with full power 357's... but that's going the wrong way.

In a month or so when my smokeless arrives and I can crank the big bullets up in velocity, will they flatten out?... I kind of doubt it, I think they'll shoot even higher... I figure I'll just have to hold on the bottom of the buffalo... LOL...

I wondered what those who have experience loading 45-70 have found?

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

I thought the original 45-70 bullet was 405 grains. I've often wondered about loading some 777 in a 45-70 just for kicks.

 

[Tim the student]

I'd have bet you at least 50 cents that a 500 grain bullet traveling at 1200 fps would shoot substantially lower than a 300 grain bullet at 1850 fps.

As I understand it, the slower bullets have more time to spend in the bore that is traveling upwards, so they shoot higher. The faster bullets get out quicker, so the bore rising has less impact on them.

 

[AJumbo]

Heavier bullets will tend to shoot to a higher point of impact than lighter ones, given the same POA. I experienced this same thing when I acquired my first trapdoor infantry rifle.

The only concern have with your new 777 load is that I'd prefer to use a lubed, cast bullet with any BP or BP substitute. I have no experience with 777, so I may be off base on this one. How much fouling does the load produce?

 

[bill97222]

Heavier bullets will tend to shoot to a higher point of impact than lighter ones, given the same POA. I experienced this same thing when I acquired my first trapdoor infantry rifle.

The only concern have with your new 777 load is that I'd prefer to use a lubed, cast bullet with any BP or BP substitute. I have no experience with 777, so I may be off base on this one. How much fouling does the load produce?

Bullet lube?

A good point point that I had not considered.

I only shot six rounds of the 777 handload, two groups since it was pouring rain and I have so little ammo available, so my 777 handload test is a work in progress.

I have an H&R 58 cal muzzleloader which I must remove the breech block from and swab every 3 or 4 shots lest the block seize in the breech... the bore of the 45-70 after 6 rounds looked about the same as the 58 looks after firing round balls with bullet lubed patches... I had my rod to swab the bore if necessary, but did not so fouling wasn't a problem with a low round count.

I have some 300 gr and 405 gr cast lead round nose flat points in the mill... they're Missouri Bullet Company units and I expect that they will be my regular plinking/range projectiles once they arrive in a few weeks.

Since the 500 gr's shoot this high with the 777 loading, I'll probably have to shelve them until I have some IMR 3031 or Reloader 7 on hand and can step up the velocity quite a bit to make a more shootable round.

 

[BCRider]

Shooting a 45-70 at 50 yards is pretty much like trying to play tennis in a closet. Instead of worrying about the 16 inch gain at 50 send the next batch out to 100 yards so they can arc up and over and arrive back within your sight's elevation range.

The only decent reason I see to shoot such a gun at 50 is to set up the windage to zero. After that it's time to lob those big boys out to a proper and manly distance...

Watch out for what lube they use on those Missouri bullets. If they use a lube intended for smokeless often time with black or subs for black the lube will produce hard tar like fouling. If their bullet lube isn't stated to be black powder friendly then you may need to melt it out of the grooves and substitute a BP and BP sub friendly lube to avoid this issue.

I could be wrong but in my travels looking around for smokeless loads for my rolling block .38-55 I believe I've seen some BP like load recipes that used 4227, 4198 and even 2400 to be used in 45-70 loadings. But do check into this for yourself before leaping in.