a1abdj
Member
The lowest grade Graffunder will be built heavier than most of the highest grade gun safes offered by the "big names" in the gun safe business. Their fit and finish are also second to none.
Why a safe isn't enough!
- Thread starter CraigJS
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The lowest grade Graffunder will be built heavier than most of the highest grade gun safes offered by the "big names" in the gun safe business. Their fit and finish are also second to none.
The Annoyed Man
Member
I apologize if my response sounded like an accusation. I certainly didn't mean it that way. I defer to your wisdom in these matters; after all, you are the professional, not me.CB900F said:
I was just trying to say that one should take into account one's available resources when buying, AND the likelyhood of being broken into when assessing one's needs. What you guys have said is true though... count me among those who didn't know any better and bought what looked like a pretty good safe, not realizing that it is an RSC, or that there is a difference between a safe and a RSC. I suspect that I am very representative of people who have done that, in that I have to accept one more "could'a, would'a, should'a" and move on, knowing that my guns are "reasonably safe" from theft. As someone else said, this thread has been an education. I hope that my gun collection continues to grow. If it does, it will soon outgrow my Liberty RSC, and I'll be better informed when it comes time to shop for a larger, real safe.
You live and you learn.
Shrock
Member
Safe Guru's please help. I'm getting really frustrated trying to figure out what this safe is made of (thickness of steel on door and body). AMSEC insists that the body is made from 1/8" steel.
RF6528 AMSEC TL-30 rated gun safe.
http://www.amsecusa.com/gun-safes-HS-main.htm
The fact that it weighs 3,445 lbs and it is TL-30 rated made it seem impossible to me that the body is only 1/8" thick. AMSEC has been less than helpful and even hung up on me.
I have a couple possible explanations I've come up with but I still dont know what is truly correct.
1.) It is actually thicker than 1/8" and AMEC doesnt know their own product. Most of the TL-30 rated non-gun safes seem to be 1" steel body and 1.5" steel doors.
2.) It is using some sort of hi security composite filler contruction that is very burglary resistant and makes up for the 1/8" steel.
3.) The door of the safe is TL-30 rated but the body is wimpy 1/8" steel and easy to get into. After reading the TL-30 rating info here:
http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com/scopes/scopes.asp?fn=0687.html
It appears to me that they dont even test the body on a TL-30 rated safe, they only test the door. The TL-30X6 lists as the safe and the body as being tested. If this turn out to be the answer I think this is a very sleazy misleading safe indeed....even if it is technically correct by the rating. I say this because the other TL-30 rated safes I've seen have a 1" thick steel body makking the security level of the body at least similar to that of the door.
If it helps anyone answer the question, AMSEC also told me that the the RF6528 TL-30 gun safe is essential the AMVAULT with a gun safe interior. That product is here:
http://www.amsecusa.com/composite-safe-am-vault.htm
RF6528 AMSEC TL-30 rated gun safe.
http://www.amsecusa.com/gun-safes-HS-main.htm
The fact that it weighs 3,445 lbs and it is TL-30 rated made it seem impossible to me that the body is only 1/8" thick. AMSEC has been less than helpful and even hung up on me.
I have a couple possible explanations I've come up with but I still dont know what is truly correct.
1.) It is actually thicker than 1/8" and AMEC doesnt know their own product. Most of the TL-30 rated non-gun safes seem to be 1" steel body and 1.5" steel doors.
2.) It is using some sort of hi security composite filler contruction that is very burglary resistant and makes up for the 1/8" steel.
3.) The door of the safe is TL-30 rated but the body is wimpy 1/8" steel and easy to get into. After reading the TL-30 rating info here:
http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com/scopes/scopes.asp?fn=0687.html
It appears to me that they dont even test the body on a TL-30 rated safe, they only test the door. The TL-30X6 lists as the safe and the body as being tested. If this turn out to be the answer I think this is a very sleazy misleading safe indeed....even if it is technically correct by the rating. I say this because the other TL-30 rated safes I've seen have a 1" thick steel body makking the security level of the body at least similar to that of the door.
If it helps anyone answer the question, AMSEC also told me that the the RF6528 TL-30 gun safe is essential the AMVAULT with a gun safe interior. That product is here:
http://www.amsecusa.com/composite-safe-am-vault.htm
Shrock
Member
I'm starting to suspect #3 (from my post above) more and more, perhaps that is why AMSEC wast very eager to help me understand the product.
OK fair enough, the spec says door only for the testing, but it also says:
So is the body using some fancy composite effectively similar to 1" steel? Does it really even have to be according to the spec???
7.7.2.1.4 The UL tests on TL-15 (and TL-30) deposit safes are limited to the door and front face only. Using pressure applying devices and carbide drills, the body of these safes can be easily penetrated. They should be clad in concrete to improve their burglary resistance. Their use should be limited to low-risk situations where inventory values are kept to a minimum.
OK fair enough, the spec says door only for the testing, but it also says:
7.7.2.1.2 The metal used in the body of the safe usually is open-hearth steel 1 in. (2.54 cm) thick with an ultimate tensile strength of 50,000 psi (345 Mpa), or 1/2-in. thick steel with an ultimate tensile strength of 100,000 psi (690 Mpa). Materials other than steel can be used if, in testing by UL, it can be shown to provide equivalent resistance to attack.
So is the body using some fancy composite effectively similar to 1" steel? Does it really even have to be according to the spec???
a1abdj
Member
Jim,
There is a bit of truth in everything you're thinking:
AMSEC is a big company, and they have customer service folks that field the phone calls. Sometimes the information they have in front of them is accurate, and sometimes they need to check with engineering to field a question. I get bad information from numerous safe companies on a regular basis. It's not intentional.
In this case, they should be correct
This is exactly the situation with this particular safe. There are two types of safes commonly seen. The steel plate version (you've mentioned seeing 1.5" doors and 1" bodies), and composite versions (the AMSEC you're asking about).
Composite safes use more modern materials that are lighter, and less expensive than raw steel. This results in a safe that cost the consumer less, is easier to move up and down elevators in commercial buildings, and is often more secure than their steel counterparts.
Steel plate TL rated safes are still available through AMSEC, but are only quoted on request. They are shown in their catalogs.
The UL rating does include a minimal wall structure, even though it's not tested to the same standard as the door. These standards state specific strengths, and with modern materials, allow thinner plates. I just worked on a TL-30 safe the other day that had a 3/4" maganese steel alloy door. The safe below it was a C rate, with the old fashioned 1" A36 steel door.
On normal TL units, the body and door both must meet minimum requirements, with the door being the portion of the safe tested for time. On these safes, the door is stronger than the body.
On TL X6 units, the body and door both must meet the same minimum requirements, with the door and body being tested for time. On these safes, the door and body are equal in strenth.
As with everything else, not all rated safes are built equally. Some are built better than others. I have also heard of Chinese imports with fake UL tags. The AMSEC AMVAULT is a very popular unit, and in wide use commercially.
That is correct. The RF6528 is the CF6528 dressed up with fancy paint and a gun safe interior.
We have been converting commercial and antique safes into gun safes for years. AMSEC is currently the only safe manufacturer that I'm aware of building a UL TL-30 gun safe. Graffunder builds a "E and F Rate" safes, while although not UL listed, are built similar to TL-15 and TL-30 steel plate units.
There is a bit of truth in everything you're thinking:
AMSEC is a big company, and they have customer service folks that field the phone calls. Sometimes the information they have in front of them is accurate, and sometimes they need to check with engineering to field a question. I get bad information from numerous safe companies on a regular basis. It's not intentional.
In this case, they should be correct
This is exactly the situation with this particular safe. There are two types of safes commonly seen. The steel plate version (you've mentioned seeing 1.5" doors and 1" bodies), and composite versions (the AMSEC you're asking about).
Composite safes use more modern materials that are lighter, and less expensive than raw steel. This results in a safe that cost the consumer less, is easier to move up and down elevators in commercial buildings, and is often more secure than their steel counterparts.
Steel plate TL rated safes are still available through AMSEC, but are only quoted on request. They are shown in their catalogs.
The UL rating does include a minimal wall structure, even though it's not tested to the same standard as the door. These standards state specific strengths, and with modern materials, allow thinner plates. I just worked on a TL-30 safe the other day that had a 3/4" maganese steel alloy door. The safe below it was a C rate, with the old fashioned 1" A36 steel door.
On normal TL units, the body and door both must meet minimum requirements, with the door being the portion of the safe tested for time. On these safes, the door is stronger than the body.
On TL X6 units, the body and door both must meet the same minimum requirements, with the door and body being tested for time. On these safes, the door and body are equal in strenth.
As with everything else, not all rated safes are built equally. Some are built better than others. I have also heard of Chinese imports with fake UL tags. The AMSEC AMVAULT is a very popular unit, and in wide use commercially.
That is correct. The RF6528 is the CF6528 dressed up with fancy paint and a gun safe interior.
We have been converting commercial and antique safes into gun safes for years. AMSEC is currently the only safe manufacturer that I'm aware of building a UL TL-30 gun safe. Graffunder builds a "E and F Rate" safes, while although not UL listed, are built similar to TL-15 and TL-30 steel plate units.
Shrock
Member
.
Thanks for your help!
That is good to hear.
And now for extra credit....
Can you help me unravel the mystery construction of this other AMSEC model.
Model# SE6831
http://www.amsecusa.com/gun-safes-HS-main.htm
It only has an RSC rating but it is in the "High security" product section on the same page as the TL-30 rated safe, Implying it is more secure than the BF series. It is also heavier than a similarly sized BF series safe....but about half the weight of the TL-30 model. Further confusing me, it seems to be about the same price as the TL-30 rated RF6528.
Thanks for your help!
That is good to hear.
And now for extra credit....
Can you help me unravel the mystery construction of this other AMSEC model.Model# SE6831
http://www.amsecusa.com/gun-safes-HS-main.htm
It only has an RSC rating but it is in the "High security" product section on the same page as the TL-30 rated safe, Implying it is more secure than the BF series. It is also heavier than a similarly sized BF series safe....but about half the weight of the TL-30 model. Further confusing me, it seems to be about the same price as the TL-30 rated RF6528.
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a1abdj
Member
The SE6831 was a beefed up version of the BF series safes. These safes used 10 gauge (1/8") steel on the inner and outer skin, and added top and bottom bolts on the door. The interior was also a little nicer.
I'm pretty sure AMSEC has discontinued this safe, as it is not listed in the 2008 catalog.
Yes and yes. The other benefit to composite safes is that the barrier materials offer natural fire protection.
Shrock
Member
So this AMSEC safe RF6528, looks like one heck of a good deal if protection is what your looking for. This safe would be the equivalent of an E or F rated (Solid 1" walls and 1.5" door) Graffunder safe right? At a price similar to a B rated safe (1/4" walls and 1/2" door).
My only issue with it is that I know I will out grow it. I'm kinda thinking about this one super secure safe and another lower cost safe when I run out of room to keep less valuable things in.
My only issue with it is that I know I will out grow it. I'm kinda thinking about this one super secure safe and another lower cost safe when I run out of room to keep less valuable things in.
a1abdj
Member
AMSEC builds a larger safe (79 x 43 x 32, 4,300 pounds) that they would probably build into a gun safe on request.
If that's not big enough, I have a used Armor TL-15 plate steel safe that should work for you. It's approximately 80" x 80" x 24", and weighs a little over 5,000 pounds.
In steel plate safes, a E rate is pretty similar to a TL-15, and a F rate is pretty similar to a TL-30. The AMSEC is probably going to run a little higher than a Graffunder B rate.
The price of steel is high, which makes steel safes much more expensive than composite safes. This is why AMSEC only quotes prices on steel plate units per request.
beemerphile
Member
My only issue with it is that I know I will out grow it. I'm kinda thinking about this one super secure safe and another lower cost safe when I run out of room to keep less valuable things in.
I have thought about this and have convinced myself that two small safes may be better than one large one...
1) To get all of the guns they have to crack two safes.
2) Each one is easier to move, locate, disguise, etc.
I have bought an AMSEC CSC3417 for my pistol collection and will locate it separately from the tall gun cabinet (which has not been selected yet but is looking to be an AMSEC BF6030 unless I talk myself into something better.)
UPDATE: The AMSEC BF603 is on order. Enough agonizing over it. As the great philosopher Popeye says: "Ya pays ya nickel, and ya takes ya choice."
I have thought about this and have convinced myself that two small safes may be better than one large one...
1) To get all of the guns they have to crack two safes.
2) Each one is easier to move, locate, disguise, etc.
I have bought an AMSEC CSC3417 for my pistol collection and will locate it separately from the tall gun cabinet (which has not been selected yet but is looking to be an AMSEC BF6030 unless I talk myself into something better.)
UPDATE: The AMSEC BF603 is on order. Enough agonizing over it. As the great philosopher Popeye says: "Ya pays ya nickel, and ya takes ya choice."
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