Why a safe isn't enough!

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"The AMSEC BF series is one of the best buys in its price range. It uses thicker steel and better tecnology than most of the other gun safes on the market."

I've got one on order for Christmas! Thanks, Frank.
 
Being in the market for a gun safe (A.K.A RSC) I find this thread very interesting. After have talked to local gun store owners (that also sell safes), safe dealer reps, and factory direct I can tell you that I doubt I would believe anything ANYONE would tell you. Here is what EVERY safe manufacture says:
1) Don't believe the other's fire rating, they are lying to you.
2) Don't believe the other's security rating, they only use (10 or 12 or whatever) AWG and a high school kid with a screwdriver can open it.
3) The others don't weld their structures - only at the ends
4) The others don't use real hard plates
5) The others use silly putty for fire insulation
And then we come to the near religious discussion of digital versus dial that I won't even touch.
In my mind, this entire industry, the dealers, and shop owners have earned a liar grade in my book. Snake's oil salesmen at its worst.

The thing I find real interesting in this thread and others I have run into, is that those who call themselves "experts" at this are always asked to provide a recommendation for a gun safe within specific limitations. The limitations are usually money, and size. Granted those limitations, the so called experts can’t even make a single recommendation! I am not referring to anyone in particular. I have called many businesses in my area and got similar results.

This quest for a gun safe is turning out to be quite the experience!
 
I'm in the same boat Satex. Every manufacturer says they are the only REAL safe (RSC) manufacturer and everyone else basically sucks. The worst part is since we aren't criminals or safecrackers we don't know who is lying or who's RSC is really better.
All I want to know is what's the best sub-$1300 RSC that will hold a decent number of guns (10 long guns or more plus a shelf or two for pistols)? Liberty is at the top of my list simply because there is an outlet store nearby so I can twist the knobs myself. And they seem reputable.
 
The limitations are usually money, and size.
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Those are really your best points of comparison on many of these safes. A 12 gauge box is a 12 gauge box regardless of who makes it.

All I want to know is what's the best sub-$1300 RSC that will hold a decent number of guns (10 long guns or more plus a shelf or two for pistols)?
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You can buy one of the smaller AMSEC BF series in that price range. They are one of the better options out there, and blow the Liberty away.

The reason that many of those involved in the gun safe business seem like they're selling snake oil, is because they are. You can't get an honest answer out of somebody that doesn't know the answer themself.

Most of us real safe guys have real safe experience. We know what it takes to cut, drill, and beat on a safe because that's what we do. We know what a safe looks like after a fire, because we're called out to open it after the fact. Most people in the safe business are locksmiths. Most locksmiths are ethical by definition of their work.

If you haven't talked to a real safe guy locally, I suggest you do so. You'll probably find out more about safes than you ever wanted to know. If you don't know of any around you, I'd be happy to locate a fellow SAVTA member in your part of the world.
 
Great answer, so here is my question - to narrow it down a bit. I am going to take two safes, side by safe. The AMSEC BF6032 and the Liberty Colonial 23. Both are of nearly identical size and cost. Both come with a S&G electronic lock (same model number I believe).
Now apples to apples, what about an AMSEC makes it a better purchase?

Now, here is the second issue, and in my mind almost of similar importance. Speaking to many dealers, all but one will only deliver to my curb. No one will take it up one flight of strairs and put it where I want it. N

on of the dealers will even recommend a local trustworthy mover. Given that many people who work for movers have a shady background, how would I get my safe put in place?
Ironically, only the Liberty dealer will deliver and install the safe where ever I ask him to for just $150.
 
I am going to take two safes, side by safe. The AMSEC BF6032 and the Liberty Colonial 23. Both are of nearly identical size and cost. Both come with a S&G electronic lock (same model number I believe).

Now apples to apples, what about an AMSEC makes it a better purchase?
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AMSEC BF Door
1/2" solid steel plate

Liberty Colonial Door
1/10" sheet steel door wrapped on gypsum

AMSEC BF Body
1/8" steel, injected composite fireproofing, steel inner liner

Liberty Colonial Body
1/10" steel

AMSEC BF Fire Protection
Injected composite (goes in as liquid)

Liberty Colonial Fire Protection
X rated gypsum board

AMSEC BF Hinges
External (stronger, adjustable, full door swing)

Liberty Colonial Hinges
Internal (weaker, not adjustable, 90 degree swing)

AMSEC BF Weight
810 Pounds

Liberty Colonial Weight
565 Pounds

The locks are similar, as are the warranties

Now, here is the second issue, and in my mind almost of similar importance. Speaking to many dealers, all but one will only deliver to my curb. No one will take it up one flight of strairs and put it where I want it. N
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Anybody who's really in the safe business can put your safe wherever you want it. If you're talking to people who can't perform the delivery, then you need to talk to somebody else.

When I ship a safe, I can only get it to the curb. I can usually located a professional safe mover to take it from there.

Ironically, only the Liberty dealer will deliver and install the safe where ever I ask him to for just $150.
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Ironically, I do all of the deliveries for the local Liberty dealer, who's one of the biggest dealers in the country :D

I can probably point you towards some local AMSEC dealers or somebody capable of moving the safe for you if you let me know where you're located.
 
Another reason a lot of safe dealers won't go up stairs? They don't know how your stairwell was built and if it will support the weight of a safe and two or three big guys getting it up the stairs. It's a liability thing. they don't want to rebuild your house if they fall through the stairwell, and lose three good hard working men in the progress.
 
Lets face it, the common guy here don't live in 20 million dollar homes where its known cash, jewlery and art lives. And if you do you can afford to buy the best or have a safe room thats hidden.

Or its an established business such as the Burger King mentioned where cash is known to be or a jewlery store.

The average burglar we'll see carries a hammer, screwdriver and crow bar which will enter any sheetmetal based cabinet real easy.

The heavier duty safes will deter to a point cause when was the last time a thief got busted in a residential burglary carrying a gas powered chop saw or a plasma cutter which is utterly rediculous since they require quite a bit of CFM air flow to operate which would require one also to carry a good size air compressor. Even 120v cutters require 20 amp and would easily trip the 99% of 15amp outlets in the house.

Too much zombie thinking and not enough pratical application.

First, keep your freaking mouth shut that you have guns. I know some like to wear em like jewlery and so you invite trouble.

Second if you can't afford to buy a safe or live in an apartment get creative in your hiding.

Turn your couch upside down, cut the material from the bottom and build a wood frame to store your guns. You can do the same with a chair or love seat.

Cut out the sheet rock between the studs in a closet and hide some firearms in there. Frame the cut rock and it looks like an access to plumbing. patch it when you move out.

Go to a thrift shop and buy an old 19" tv. Something to old and heavy thats not worth anything in a pawn shop. Put in in a bedroom or other room. Pull the back off and remove all the electronics but leave the tube which will leave space for hand guns. Mangle the power plug like a dog ate it.

A friend did this and while it took removing the screws to get the guns, it worked as when he got busted into, they only took the good tv and other pawnable stuff.

With a little effort you can build a false wall in the back of a closet losing only 2 to 4 inches.
 
A quick public thank you to "a1abdj".

I emailed him some of my concerns and he took the time to write a very detailed response. I'm stuck with a safe that, according to him, is just dandy. But, I will most certainly send him any business I can and if I ever need another safe, I will be talking to him.

Thank you Sir.
 
Today I got the best safe related education a person can get. I went down to a local gun shop (El Cajon Gun Exchange) and got a lesson in safes by the owner (Ron). They have an excellent video they produced about safes plus they have safes with the doors exposed!
Wow! what can I say. It's no wonder most companies hide the internals of the doors behind a nice carpeted board. I will never look at safes the same again, nor will I ever consider anything made by Liberty to be a safe.
I was very impressed with ProSteel's products. In my mind, they seem to be a tier above the rest.
If you think of purchasing a safe, do yourself a favor, go to a shop that has the doors uncovered! You will want to look inside - trust me!
 
Today I got the best safe related education a person can get. I went down to a local gun shop (El Cajon Gun Exchange) and got a lesson in safes by the owner (Ron). They have an excellent video they produced about safes plus they have safes with the doors exposed!
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In other words, you got a sales pitch for the brands of safes the shop is a distributor for? :scrutiny:

You know, you can go into, say, a Ford dealership and ask about cars. You'd get as unbiased an education as to which to buy, right?

And as to another post...

Well a friend of mine has his safe bolted to 12 foot lengths of rebar buried inthe wall and the ground. To top it off if anyone burns through tyhe safe witha torch they are going to have a nasty surprise. He lives in a SMALL apartment with the safe in the only bedroom. HE sure as hell ain't gonna leave the tools(his oxy/acetalyne torch)to get into the safe where it can be grabbed and used. Hense the torch is inside the safe. Someone tries to burn through they are gonna hit that and BOOM. Thats 50 firearms that no longer exist and one less criminal to deal with.
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Oh, brilliant. In an APARTMENT? So the fire burns down the building and perhaps kills the other residents, too. Your "friend" is lilkely violating a number of fire codes in most muncipalities. And I'm honestly going to call BS on that, since I can't see any landlord allowing their residents to do that sort of destructive remodeling to a rental apartment. 12 foot lengths of rebar? I mean, come on. :scrutiny:
 
Today I got the best safe related education a person can get. I went down to a local gun shop (El Cajon Gun Exchange) and got a lesson in safes by the owner (Ron).
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I'm not saying it's not possible, but I don't know of any safe experts who do anything else during the day aside from working on safes. If you want an education on safes, you need to go someplace that is in the safe business...not the gun safe business.

Many of these companies produce their own videos which are very biased. One of these days, I was considering making my own video, showing the truths behind everything these manufacturers (and dealers) say about their products.

If you wanted to point out some of the main features that made the pro steel safes better than the others, I bet I can explain to you why they don't make one bit of difference.
 
Fella's;

Here's two simple concepts to keep in mind.

1. Plate steel, all 6 sides, 1/4" minimum. If it doesn't have it, it isn't a safe, it's an RSC. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

2. U.L. 1 hour fire standard met or exceeded. It's not really fireproof if it doesn't meet #2. Companies who can meet it say so, companies that can't evade, have other tests, etc.

900F
 
Anyone have an opinion of Champion gun safes?
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I'll second the question. Don't know anything about them, but heard they were new to the market and on par with Liberty.

Anyone have any knowledge of them?
 
a1abdj,

Not to dismiss your knowledge, but my Liberty Timberline (a no frills model from Gander Mountain) does indeed have a 1/2 inch plate door. I know for a fact because I had to rebuild it (it had been flooded and the fireproofing was wet, I paid $250 for it). I stripped all the fireproofing and replaced with Type X from Home Depot. That door measured 1/2 inch plate. The rest was 12 or 10 guage steel, but the door was every bit the thickness of the RSC's you sell. Placement guarenteed protection as two sides of the safe are against an exterior walls, the top has clearance of less than 12 inches, and the other side has 1/2 inch plywood wall with clearance of less than two inches, 4 inch clearance in the wall itself with studs, then gypsum wallboard on the other side. The door has a distance of 3 feet in front of it for swinging a sledgehammer but not a 3 foot arc for swinging around and so very little force could be generated in direct blow against the door. Bolted to the floor, the only way it will be forced would be to destroy the interior wall and attack from that side. It can be done, but fortunately, there is nothing in my collection worth the hassel of an informed crook, and given its location, discovery would require a more intensive search of the home than most are willing to conduct in a good neighborhood with elderly folks at home during the day on two sides. I bought it, actually, to protect some family shotguns (low end bolt guns that are very special to me) from fire. Given placement in my home, they are well protected.

But, back to my original post, the Timberline by Liberty does in fact have 1/2 inch plate steel on the door. I know, because I ripped out all the material down to metal, removed surface rust, primed, and then painted the interior before installing new fireproofing, including the door.

Ash
 
But, back to my original post, the Timberline by Liberty does in fact have 1/2 inch plate steel on the door. I know, because I ripped out all the material down to metal, removed surface rust, primed, and then painted the interior before installing new fireproofing, including the door.
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I think what you're looking at is a piece of sheet metal wrapped around a piece of gypsum board, and not solid plate. It looks like solid plate, but I can assure you it is not. If you remove the lock and look down the spindle hole you will see what I'm talking about.

Liberty's top of the line safes are the Presidential and the National Security. These are safes that cost $3,000 to $5,000. The Presidential only has 1/4" plate in the door, and the National Security only has a 3/8" door.
 
I think we all need to use a little more common sense here. Reports of people having their RSC broken into are less then rare first of all. Secondly I don't see people using 1/2" steel plate on their 50K cars, they have insurance and if you have a collection that warrants protection you should have insurance. Also to use cars as an example, how do you defeat the new electonic key locks that require the key to start a car? You car jack someone thats how. How do most Jewlery stores get robbed, a gun in the face of the owner/employees by some thug, not James Bond after hours. Most criminals are in and out in less then 10 minutes and just there to grab what they can and run. I'm sure there are true professionals, with professional tools, and I'm also sure Joe Shmoe in anytown USA is not worth their time.
 
Interesting that this thread was brought back as I actually had a safe question and this is a good place to pose it.

My collection is quite small and not of a ton of value...let's say that the NRA insurance you get as a member covers my losses. However I am going to need something to keep little fingers off of and a "smash and grab" type of burglar out.

I understand that you either have a 1) security cabinet 2) RSC and 3) Safe.

I am sure I could defeat one of the $80 stack on security cabinets with little in the way of tools. I don't know how long it would take me to get into an RSC, but I have a couple of saw-zalls in the garage and a 5' long johnson bar for breaking up concrete in addition to a nice drill, hammers, chisels, hacksaw, etc.

Basically I am asking...if I can't get into a real safe that weighs under 500# (would be likely mounting on the second floor of a wood framed house) is there really any difference between the $80 security cabinet and an RSC? Even once i have my C&R those guns aren't worth a whole lot of money.

As far as people that know I have guns, my friends all know that I hunt. My neighbor knows I hunt (as does he). Other than that I don't go around telling everyone in the world. Any good books on storage solutions? Seems to me that hiding a safe in the closet is the first place I would look. Or should I just go talk to the local safe guy and see what he recommends...
 
Wedge;

The RSC rating shows that the container can withstand a single-person 5 minute attack with common hand tools. No tool can exceed 18" in length. There is no substantial protective difference between the cabinet and the RSC in my professional opinion.

Get the least expensive unit that meets your needs. Hide or disguise it well.

900F
 
Thanks CB900F. That was my feeling as well. I have enough tools in my garage that would make short work of a lot of different things...you should see the destruction when I try and build something!
 
>>A 12 gauge box is a 12 gauge box regardless of who makes it.

That pretty much sums it up. I know nothing about safes, but I know steel. All the fancy baloney with locks and door bolts is just that...baloney. If the body is 12ga, I could get everything out in 5 minutes with a frigging jig saw! Seriously!

That doesn't mean it is useless, but it does mean that a criminal with a hatchet and 15 minutes can have his way with it.

On this Amsec BF...it looks good, but the thing is still only 10 ga steel...which is better but not a ton better. Making an identical safe out of 1/4" plate shouldnt add more that $500. Where can I get one like that?
 
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