Why a safe isn't enough!

[a1abdj]

The Winchester at Sams Club has all the same features (on paper) that all the other sub 1k safes appear to have:
-12 gauge steel
-UL Group 2 lock
-Comparable fire rating (1200 degree for 32 min)
Cost is $899.

Look at these, specifically the models ending in H:

http://www.zykansafe.com/diamondgunsafes.html

For $519 I can get a Amsec LP5924W or for $659 I can get a Browning TG15 (both are out the door prices). Those safes seem to have the same basic features at the Winchester, so what makes them not as desirable?

Some people prefer to buy American. I find this amusing, since many of the guns placed within these safes are not made in the US.

If the country of origin is important, then that's the only difference.

Is it the location of the lock works?
The number of bolts?
The lack of reinforced (hardened) plate?
Something to do with relockers? (I don't think any of them have that)
Warranty/guarantee?

Compare these same features on the safes you mentioned to the features of the safes in the link I provided above, and compare the prices.

 

[javacodeman]

tagged so I can find it

me too.

 

[dave_pro2a]

::sigh::

$659+350S&H+Tax=over 1k for your smallest H series Chinese safe with 10 gauge steel and longer fire rating (same temps though, so longer doesn't matter unless your FD response time sucks).

The Chinese safe you're pushing does seem slightly better than other alternatives in the sticker price range, but when the other price factors are added in it just won't work for some people.

Buying local = no sales tax, no extra shipping charge.

Living next to a major port serving ships from Asia means that while 'shipping' costs are 'integrated' into the price of the safe, they will be the lowest shipping cost possible. Not the shipping costs to a port in Missouri and then additional shipping costs across the country to a residence.

If made in America is the only difference between a sub 1k Liberty, Browning, Amsec Cannon, and Winchester safes, then that makes the decision very easy, thanks.

 

[a1abdj]

$659+350S&H+Tax=over 1k for your smallest H series Chinese safe with 10 gauge steel and longer fire rating (same temps though, so longer doesn't matter unless your FD response time sucks).

10 gauge body, 1/4" full plate door, 60 minute fire rating, and 4 sided locking. Comparing that to anything with those specs from any brand name safe will land you in the $1,200 to $2,000 range minimum.

And you're overstating my pricing a little. There is no sales tax if bought outside of Missouri, and shipping on the biggest of these safes would run $200 at most unless you live in downtown New York city.

The actual cost on the safe you mentioned, with THR discount would be $700 to $750 dependant on location.

The Chinese safe you're pushing does seem slightly better than other alternatives in the sticker price range, but when the other price factors are added in it just won't work for some people.

You're right. It won't work for some people. However, considering that my next most inexpensive safes start in the $1,500 range going up into the tens of thousands of dollars, this line is at a pretty good price point.

I don't really push these safes, even though they are a much better buy than 99% of the competition.

I push the AMSEC BF series, because that's really one of the best buys on the market today.

Buying local = no sales tax, no extra shipping charge.

Where do you live that you don't pay sales tax?

Living next to a major port serving ships from Asia means that while 'shipping' costs are 'integrated' into the price of the safe, they will be the lowest shipping cost possible. Not the shipping costs to a port in Missouri and then additional shipping costs across the country to a residence.

All of my safes are drop shipped from their distributors. My safes come from California, Washington, Utah, Ohio, and South Carolina.

If made in America is the only difference between a sub 1k Liberty, Browning, Amsec Cannon, and Winchester safes, then that makes the decision very easy, thanks.

Although the Winchester safes aren't what they were 10 years ago, they make an excellent entry level gun safe. The fact that they are built in the US is a good plus.

 

[dave_pro2a]

Not trying to piss in your cherios a1abdj, now that you explain some of the details it makes more sense

Drop shipping, 4 side locking, 1/4 plate door, THR discount.

I still think that the length of fire rating is moot so long as you live where there's good FD response times. If you lived out in the sticks then a longer rating would make sense, where response time might be 30-45 minutes, rather than 5-10.

I'm in WA, no sales tax on gun safes (an actual law).

 

[CB900F]

Lupinus;

In mere minutes the typical RSC can be opened to the point you could drive out of it, let alone worry about leaving DNA behind trying to finagle a 1911 pattern out. A1abdj's got a pic somewhere around here of a Liberty that appears to have been compromised. It kinda looks like the jolly green giant's collander, big holes in it.

900F

 

[dave_pro2a]

Sure, give me 5 minutes:

12 gauge, 10 gauge, 1/4 plate, it's a steal of a stihl

 

[a1abdj]

Not trying to piss in your cherios a1abdj, now that you explain some of the details it makes more sense

Not a problem at all. I'm typically not big into the details, because I'm not really here to sell safes...but rather share information with fellow enthusiasts. Just pointing out that there are other options available if you search in the right places.

I still think that the length of fire rating is moot so long as you live where there's good FD response times. If you lived out in the sticks then a longer rating would make sense, where response time might be 30-45 minutes, rather than 5-10.

I agree, and think that the weight and costs associated with fireproofing would be better allocated towards the steel thickness.

The problem is the gun safe manufacturers have realized they can sell more safes when they market them as a multipurpose safe as opposed to just a gun safe.

big holes

They could have been bigger

12 gauge, 10 gauge, 1/4 plate, it's a steal of a stihl

I saw photos of a 1.5" solid steel burglary rated chest sliced open with one of those. If the photo wasn't copywrited I would post it to give those reading this something to ponder.

One of those saws making slicing 1.5" plate like butter would make very short work of something made of 1/10" sheet.

 

[MAKster]

plate verse composite door

Which is better - a 3/16 inch plate door or a 1 inch composite door of 12 gauge steel? I assume the composite doors on the low end models only have one layer of 12 gauge steel except around the edge of the door. Therefore 3/16 (.187 inch) should be stronger than 12 gauge (.1 inch). Then why do the RSC makers promote the composite door as better? Is is just because the composite doors have higher fire ratings.

 

[Lupinus]

yeah, you could get a handgun out of that size hole. But...

Consider the hole and where the shelf used to be

Also you wanna reach through that hole and try manipulating a rifle or shotgun out of it? You wont catch me sticking my arm in there trying to do it, I like my blood in my viens where it belongs.

I'm not saying it can't be done and people like a1 know a hell of a lot more about safes then I do. But trying to take a rifle out of a hole like that, or reach around trying to find a handgun through it, doesn't seem all to easy or in line with keeping ones blood inside their own body. Nor does it say much for the value of selling it once its covered in said blood and I'd imagine a few nice scratches. Just cause you can breech it doesn't always mean you can get anything out of it

 

[Dr. Dickie]

"The Winchester at Sams Club has all the same features (on paper) that all the other sub 1k safes appear to have:
-12 gauge steel
-UL Group 2 lock
-Comparable fire rating (1200 degree for 32 min)
Cost is $899.

For $519 I can get a Amsec LP5924W or for $659 I can get a Browning TG15 (both are out the door prices). Those safes seem to have the same basic features at the Winchester, so what makes them not as desirable?"

In my neck 'o the woods, the Winchester is just $570.
I just bought one a couple weeks ago--no delivery charge.

 

[dfaugh]

I saw photos of a 1.5" solid steel burglary rated chest sliced open with one of those (Gas cutting saw). If the photo wasn't copywrited I would post it to give those reading this something to ponder.

One of those saws making slicing 1.5" plate like butter would make very short work of something made of 1/10" sheet

When Iwas working as a safe mechanic (legal safe cracker) I took one of those saws to a 1 1/2 inch thick steel safe... and it was WAY more work that cutting through thinner (say up to 1/4") steel. Went through several blades and it took me the better part of 2 days (and wore me right out!).

We aslo has a couple burglaries where they tried this (on "heavy duty" money chests). They obviously spent alot of time, but were NOT sucessful.

 

[a1abdj]

Which is better - a 3/16 inch plate door or a 1 inch composite door of 12 gauge steel? I assume the composite doors on the low end models only have one layer of 12 gauge steel except around the edge of the door. Therefore 3/16 (.187 inch) should be stronger than 12 gauge (.1 inch). Then why do the RSC makers promote the composite door as better? Is is just because the composite doors have higher fire ratings.

In gun safe terms, the 3/16" plate is better, because "composite" doors don't exist on most gun safes.

Composite safes and vault doors were designed to be lighter and less expensive while still providing the same level of security. This was achieved by using thinner steel, and a "concrete" fill that was stronger and lighter than the steels and alloys previously used.

Gun safe manufacturers take a 12 gauge piece of steel, wrap it around a piece of gypsum board, then call it a composite. It's another attempt to mislead the consumer.

Just cause you can breech it doesn't always mean you can get anything out of it

While this is true, it's still bad news. If you can fit your arm into a safe, you can get the door open. Once the door is open, you don't have to worry about working around the jagged hole.

Went through several blades and it took me the better part of 2 days (and wore me right out!).

We aslo has a couple burglaries where they tried this (on "heavy duty" money chests). They obviously spent alot of time, but were NOT sucessful.

In the January/February issue of Safe & Vault Technology, Page 18, you can see the photos of the safe I mentioned.

Major TL-15 in a Burger King. Door is cut into 3 equal pieces from the top down. Burglar cut through the 1.5" solid plate door, locking bolts, hardplate, rear cover, coin rack, and internal shelving, about 5 inches into the safe.

The Burger King was only closed for four hours that night, and he was in and out before they arrived the next morning to open.

 

[sm]

CB900F and A1abdj, I appreciate your sharing from professional experiences.
I use[d] Professionals like yourself for needs. My safes varied from Tann's to Walk in vaults to " other professional grade and recommended secure means".
Insurance Companies sure have "ideas" too.

I believe both of you would agree with me on some aspects on all this "Safe" business. I am speaking of the old adage Software not Hardware.

I had some of the top of the game security measures and safes, I used Professionals to make recommendations install, maintain and upgrade.

Easiest way to by-pass all of this - kidnap me, and at gunpoint open everything up. If not me, family, or employee.

I know, I know all too well. I also know of cases where all these things happened. I know I evaded, and I know sometimes just Lady Luck was on my side.

Another thing, folks advertise w-a-y too much. Part of my work, was a day presence. It was not hard to figure out I had access. I had another secret side, and nobody, not even some family knew what I did.

I did not advertise my life, some could not be helped.

I see and hear folks with guns, advertise, way too much. These same folks wonder how they got hit.

These Professional Security and Safe Folks are great. Better locks, safes, alarms and everything. They can fit budgets, keep you apprised of methods BGs use, or try, or if a bunch is coming to work and area. They will also share things one should know and use - such as common sense.

I have sat in a gun club, minding my own business and overheard someone speak of a new safe, where hidden, and the combo to get in. Not refer to combo being his wife's B-day, not their anniversary date - I mean the actual numbers, turns, and numbers- or - sequence to punch in on an electric pad.

No we cannot live in a bubble, we cannot be paranoid, we can use some common sense.

Granted my sense of security was shaped in how raised, what raised in. I was bonded and licensed by such folks as Lloyd's' of London. I was NOT to ever ride in the same conveyance of some other folks, never to eat at the same restaurants or any public place as they, not even allowed to set foot in some cities. Professional thugs came to areas to do their various skills. Then we had to contend with the regular run of the mill criminals.

Now a family I know does have a $59 RSC they use, they bought to keep the kids when little out of Medicine , OTC or prescribed and other things. Everyone knows this is what it is used for. Not really hidden either. Advertised to keep kids out - "advertised" is the correct word.

Nobody but a few us tight knit bunch, even know they know anything about guns, have guns, CCW, or even shoot. Valuables, like these guns, are in a Safe, real safe, one a Mom&Pop Locksmith and Safe company had , and they bought it used. Had it installed, and even set into concrete, with nuts, bolts, drill bits and other tricks - it ain't coming out. They sell that house, the safe is staying with the house.

What guns?
What safe?

See your Mom&Pop Professional Locksmith, Safe and Security folks - please. Listen to them, and especially listen to not advertising anything.



Steve

Software not Hardware.

 

[fantacmet]

Well a friend of mine has his safe bolted to 12 foot lengths of rebar buried inthe wall and the ground. To top it off if anyone burns through tyhe safe witha torch they are going to have a nasty surprise. He lives in a SMALL apartment with the safe in the only bedroom. HE sure as hell ain't gonna leave the tools(his oxy/acetalyne torch)to get into the safe where it can be grabbed and used. Hense the torch is inside the safe. Someone tries to burn through they are gonna hit that and BOOM. Thats 50 firearms that no longer exist and one less criminal to deal with.

Rev. Michael

P.S.
Insurance is a WONDERFUL thing.

 

[CB900F]

Fantacmet;

"Someone tries to burn through they are gonna hit that and BOOM. Thats 50 firearms that no longer exist and one less criminal to deal with."

In all honesty, having been there & done that, the odds of a criminal torching the safe & causing the bottles inside the safe to explode are exceedingly high. You got better odds to draw inside to a royal flush IMHO.

Now, I'm not saying that putting the torch in the safe is a bad idea. Actually, it's a pretty good idea. But expecting the burglar to auto-punish himself is out there in la-la land as far as my experience dictates. However, if those valves aren't 101% off, the bets are also off. Could be your buddy is gonna have a rude shock if there's a spark upon opening the container. He doesn't smoke, does he?

900F

 

[Lupinus]

welding tanks have preasure relief safties. Basically part of the tank is designed to melt away at a low enough temperature that it wont go BOOM.

Fireball depending on circumstances and by no means pleasent and quite possibly deadly. But you wont get a big boom with a bunch of shrapnel.

Also most theifs don't go around torching into safes. Most aren't overly smart but they are smart enough to know fire and money/valubles is often a bad mix. Smash and grab may break a few things but burning through with fire is likely to burn up a lot of valueble thus making it fruitless.

Few underprivlidged youths are going to lug around torches. And the more professional theifs who might will know better then to use it to get into a safe.

 

[dave_pro2a]

I wonder how this would work:

How brittle would 10 or 12 gauge steel become?

 

[yongxingfreesty]

lol at stole your house comment. HAHAH

 

[atomchaser]

It seems like it would take quite a bit of Liquid Nitrogen considering the thermal mass and conductivity involved with a safe. I think there were some thiefs running around with LN to get kryptonite type locks off of bikes.

Mr Science better be careful with the LN, it can give you a good burn.

 

[Cromlech]

Liquid Nitrogen is not going to do too much if you get a bit on your hand, but if you put your hand in a bucket of it, it will cause you problems.

We use it where I work, and Matt has had some go on his hand before, all it did was turn back to gas. This down to what I beleive is called the Leidenfrost effect.

As I mentioned earlier, if there are large quantities of it in contact with your skin, then you should be worried.

 

[dave_pro2a]

Metal is a conductor, not an insulator... it'd drop in temp pretty quick. And yes they make gloves for that

I'm not saying "quick billy, go try it." I'm just saying it could probably get you in w/o causing flame/fire damage to the insides of the safe.

 

[Dr. Dickie]

I can get my hands on some liquid helium if you REALLY want to drop the temperature down into the brittle zone.
Course, that is gonna cost ya! And you might just axphyxiate yourself in the process (same as with nitrogen)

 

[Dick Flanagan]

Can one of the RSC-knowledgable types tell me if the Amsec BF series use relockers? I'm tending to think they don't as I can't see where they advertise that they do. If not, is this a deal-breaker for a decent RSC?

 

[a1abdj]

The AMSEC does uses relockers.

There will be one that's internal to the lock. All UL rated Group 2 and Group 1 mechanical locks have an internal relocker.

There will also be a spring fired relocker attached to the rear cover of the lock. This relocker will lock up the boltwork independantly of the lock itself.

I may not have said it in this thread, but I have said it before. The AMSEC BF series is one of the best buys in its price range. It uses thicker steel and better tecnology than most of the other gun safes on the market. AMSEC is also a real safe company, that's been in business for a long time. They probably build more safes in a year than most of the gun safe companies have in their entire time in business.