Why an exposed trigger in a holster?

[Nom de Forum]

Many years ago, I did a fair amount of fast draw with a Model 19 (actually a Combat Magnum, pre-Model 19). Somewhere, I have an old film strip showing my draw out of a Bucheimer Federal Man holster. I drew with my finger on the trigger, and the film shows the hammer half way back with the gun at about a 45 degree angle coming up on the target. The gun fires as it comes level with the target, but the DA pull started almost before the gun cleared the holster.

A modern range officer would have three heart attacks just watching that!!!

Jim

P.S. Yes, I still have all my toes and nothing else is missing that I know of.

JK

People are always going on about NDs with Glocks. They definitely happen and are frequent with any poorly trained or irresponsible person. Of course that is true of other pistols. That being said I have witnessed more NDs from people attempting to shoot fast with 1911s than any other pistol. I have also seen the rare ND of a DA revolver, with what would be a very heavy trigger pull in a semiautomatic, on more than one occasion.

 

[JRH6856]

I am sincerely sorry to hear about your injury. I suspect even when you pick-up the R51 you will still be attempting to wipe the safety off. I hope you will really concentrate on keeping your finger off the trigger until time to shoot. I fear your years of relying on a manual safety may make you prone to an ND until you recondition yourself. What I really fear is your going back to the 1911 after an extended period of using the R51 and having an even greater chance of an ND. Good luck and may you make a full and speedy recovery.

Thank you. I'm afraid without more surgery, full function is unlikely so a speedy recovery is not in the cards either way. I too am concerned about reprogramming. Old habits do die hard, but I have always kept my finger off the trigger until ready to fire, even if it is in the guard (never said I didn't do it, just that it wasn't absolutely necessary for safety with my choice of gun). But I can always go the revolver route if I have to.

BTW, Pointing any gun at someone is not a safe practice, even with finger off the trigger, even when the gun itself is in a safe conditon, including unloaded. But I think you know that.

 

[CraigC]

"Safe condition" does not make it okay to point a firearm at somebody, unless you're planning on shooting them and haven't gotten around to it yet.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Thank you. I'm afraid without more surgery, full function is unlikely so a speedy recovery is not in the cards either way. I too am concerned about reprogramming. Old habits do die hard, but I have always kept my finger off the trigger until ready to fire, even if it is in the guard (never said I didn't do it, just that it wasn't absolutely necessary for safety with my choice of gun). But I can always go the revolver route if I have to.

BTW, Pointing any gun at someone is not a safe practice, even with finger off the trigger, even when the gun itself is in a safe conditon, including unloaded. But I think you know that.

I have followed and posted to the R51 threads and made it clear I am hoping it will be a success. That would make a .40 and .45 version more likely to be created. Well, now that I know the seriousness of your injury, I really want the R51 to be even a greater success. You have really gotten yourself a raw deal and I hope you can make the cards dealt to you a winning hand. If the R51 is well done, I am sure, barring problems with your injury, you can successfully reprogram yourself. I did in 1991 when I dropped the 1911 and picked-up the Glock. It took some real change of thinking about being safe, and muscle memory erasure and recording, but I did it and have never had an ND.

My previous post of a hyperbolic, sarcastic, and rhetorical suggestion was intended to be a maximum effort for you and anyone reading it to forever abandon the idea any mechanical manual or automatic safety feature places a firearm in a "safe condition". A "safe condition" does not exist under any circumstances other than when a firearm is pointed in a safe direction and no finger is on the trigger. Obviously we all have handled firearms around people, that have been confirmed by all as unloaded, and muzzles have been pointed in potentially unsafe directions, usually in the act of disassembly. One of the places I worked at had tables full of weapons that made it impossible not to sweep your co-workers. That table full of weapons were all supposed to be cleared before they entered the building. They were 99.999999 percent of the time, but that .000001 percent of the time they were not made things mildly or wildly exciting. Think those firearms were in a "safe condition" when they were 100 percent unloaded? They were not. I cannot adequately describe what a improperly released M2 .50 cal. spring can do to what it hits. Lets just say if it hits you, hospitalization is a definite possibility.

Good luck again and God speed your recovery.

 

[Old Fuff]

While I am more likely to incorporate a covered trigger guard on a holster made for a 1911 style pistol (or a Glock in particular), I will point out that once a gun is lifted anywhere from 1 to 2 inches the holster no longer prevents the trigger finger from being inserted into the trigger guard and/or against the trigger's fingerpiece. At this point it's unlikely that the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction.

The covered trigger guard does insure that nothing can touch the trigger while the gun (revolver or pistol) is fully holstered while being carried, and that's all.

The only solution to preventing an unintended discharge while making a draw ultimately depends on safe handling and procedure, not any holster design.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Lastly the SA automatic (the 1911 usually) was normally carried hammer down possibly with an empty chamber (that's what the US Army usually required). Again no danger of the weapon discharging in this condition.

The Army considered what we call Condition 3 (hammer down, chamber empty, loaded magazine) the preferred method of carry. In the event a round was chambered and it was necessary to holster the pistol, Condition 1 (cocked and locked) was the standard. The Army specifically forbade what we call Condition 2 (hammer down on a loaded chamber,)

 

[Nom de Forum]

The Army considered what we call Condition 3 (hammer down, chamber empty, loaded magazine) the preferred method of carry. In the event a round was chambered and it was necessary to holster the pistol, Condition 1 (cocked and locked) was the standard. The Army specifically forbade what we call Condition 2 (hammer down on a loaded chamber,)

Yet they were indeed carried in Condition 2. I saw this and alway thought going to Condition 2 was an ND situation waiting to happen. Command was so hostile toward Condition 1, I suspect some local commander's believed Condition 2 to be safer.

 

[JRH6856]

I saw this and alway thought going to Condition 2 was an ND situation waiting to happen.

Ok, why?

 

[GLOOB]

Tens of thousands of troops habitually lowering the hammer on a loaded round, manually. What could go wrong?

The official terminology when the spouse is informed is "training accident."

 

[JRH6856]

Tens of thousands of troops habitually lowering the hammer on a loaded round, manually. What could go wrong?

I know. As he said going to Condition 2 is the problem, but not carrying it that way (and I know he didn't say it was). The US Cavalry originally intended for the 1911 to be carried in Condition 2 and called for cocking it in the holster before drawing. I don't know how long that lasted.

Old habits do die hard. The 1911 was a semi-auto or self-cocker, but I suspect the major difference in this really didn't sink in to everyone immediately. Up to this point, SA pistols and revolvers had been comparitively easy to de-cock with their large, deeply curved hammers which afforded greater control. When they started de-cocking the 1911, I suspect it was much like when LEOs used to 10-12# pull DA revolvers started holstering their new Glocks.

 

[Nom de Forum]

I know. As he said going to Condition 2 is the problem, but not carrying it that way (and I know he didn't say it was). The US Cavalry originally intended for the 1911 to be carried in Condition 2 and called for cocking it in the holster before drawing. I don't know how long that lasted.

Old habits do die hard. The 1911 was a semi-auto or self-cocker, but I suspect the major difference in this really didn't sink in to everyone immediately. Up to this point, SA pistols and revolvers had been comparitively easy to de-cock with their large, deeply curved hammers which afforded greater control. When they started de-cocking the 1911, I suspect it was much like when LEOs used to 10-12# pull DA revolvers started holstering their new Glocks.

You guys got it right, going to Condition 2 is the ND magnet, not being in Condition 2.

Before going any further; no 1911 ever issued by the U.S. Military was safe in Condition 1 or 2 from an ND. They did not have firing pin blocking safeties to prevent inertia firing from being dropped.

Ah so, someone I believe is thinking about the similarity of the early 1911 use ND experience and the early Glock use ND experience. Something to keep in mind is that the habitual Condition 1 carry we have today was never intended when the 1911 was designed or adopted for use. The ability to carry a 1911 cocked and locked to enable the fast drawing and firing of competition is a serendipitous feature of the design. John Moses Browning did not anticipate people continuously carrying in Condition 1.

 

[JRH6856]

Before going any further; no 1911 ever issued by the U.S. Military was safe in Condition 1 or 2. They did not have firing pin blocking safeties.

Before going any further, neither is a gun with a firing pin block safety, "safe". It might be a bit "safer". Of course, if safety is the primary concern, it is safer still to keep the pistol disassembled and the parts stored in different locations under lock and key.

The ability to carry a 1911 cocked and locked to enable the fast drawing and firing of competition is a serendipitous feature of the design. John Moses Browning did not anticipate people continuously carrying in Condition 1.

Like I said, old habits... I seriously doubt anyone wandered around with a cocked (and obviously unlocked) SAA or Schofield, either. Especially in the Army JMB was designing for.

I did see a Brit TV episode of Midsomer Murders where an English village was having an Ameracan Wild West pagaent and the "cowboys" doing the requisite shootout carefully cocked their SAAs in the holster before the fast draw.

I can almost see the design/eval process. JMB reads specs, submits design. Someone says, "Hmm, I got it cocked, now what? This thing needs some kind of safety device." JMB adds a grip safety, someone else says, "What's that grip thingy for? What this thing needs a thumb actuated safety." JMB adds a thumb safety, someone says "Hey, no one carries a pistol cocked. Don't use that safety thingy." JMB puts a wide spur on the hammer and hopes for the best.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I've only been doing it for 40+ years. Apparently the shooters you know never developed safe habits.

Do you have any real credentials that qualify you to be an expert to state the level of safety of others actions?

There was a post by a truck driver a while back that said he was a truck driver for 40 years and it was absolutely illegal for a driver to carry a loaded firearm in a commercial vehicle - the basis for his erroneous opinion being that he drove trucks for 40 years.

As far as which condition the Army carries their guns in is completely dependent upon the level of danger from hostile forces.

 

[JRH6856]

Do you have any real credentials that qualify you to be an expert to state the level of safety of others actions?

Would it matter, either way? As your example of the truck driver shows, all that is needed to qualify someone to post an opinion in an internet forum is...an opinion. I generally don't offer credentialed opinions on the internet for free, and I generally don't question the credentials of people offering me their opinions. But I often may respond in kind. Context is important, as you final example above shows.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Would it matter, either way? As your example of the truck driver shows, all that is needed to qualify someone to post an opinion in an internet forum is...an opinion. I generally don't offer credentialed opinions on the internet for free, and I generally don't question the credentials of people offering me their opinions. But I often may respond in kind. Context is important, as you final example above shows.

Thank you. I was just seeking confirmation as to how much consideration to give to your statement:

In a word, NO. You pull the trigger when you intend to fire. You disengage the thumb safety when on target before you pull the trigger, not during the draw. Until the thumb safety is disengaged, it doesn't matter what you do with the trigger or your trigger finger.

Followed by:

I've only been doing it for 40+ years. Apparently the shooters you know never developed safe habits.

and you have adequately and honestly answered my question.

 

[1911Tuner]

The US Cavalry originally intended for the 1911 to be carried in Condition 2 and called for cocking it in the holster before drawing.

The US Cavalry's protocol was to carry the gun hammer down on an empty chamber, moving it to cocked with the safety engaged when action was imminent. The thumb safety was added for hasty reholstering when the mounted trooper found himself trying to hang onto a frightened, unruly horse and need both hands.

I can almost see the design/eval process. JMB reads specs, submits design. Someone says, "Hmm, I got it cocked, now what? This thing needs some kind of safety device." JMB adds a grip safety, someone else says, "What's that grip thingy for? What this thing needs a thumb actuated safety." JMB adds a thumb safety, someone says "Hey, no one carries a pistol cocked. Don't use that safety thingy." JMB puts a wide spur on the hammer and hopes for the best.

John Browning didn't decide those things. He did what he was asked to do by the people who paid his salary...no more and no less.

The grip safety had been part of the design starting with the Model 1907 and reappeared on the 1909 and 1910. The thumb safety came later, as the final modification.

The grip safety was and is a drop safety...not a cocked carry safety.

The half-cock was Browning's safety position. Says so right there in the 1910 patents, before the manual slide-locking safety rendered it redundant and obsolete. Nevertheless, the half-cock remained unchanged until the appearance of the Series 80 Colts in 1983...so it could still be used as a safety if one so desired.

Colt Model of 1907. The 1907 retained the non-tilting double linked barrel and rear slide dismount of its predecessors.



Model of 1909. The 1909 was a complete redesign, and featured the single link, tilting barrel, and front slide dismount of the 1910 and 1911 pistols.



Model of 1910. One of only two of the original 8 Model 1910s remaining. Of the 8 submitted, 6 were retrofitted with the manual safety and resubmitted. The modification was accepted, and the pistol adopted the following year as the US Army Model of 1911.

 

[JRH6856]

and you have adequately and honestly answered my question.

You're welcome. As I said, context is key. It is always part of the dialog, and any dialog can be edited and presented in a different light than originally intended. It generally doesn't say much about the author, though it may say a lot about the editor.

 

[JRH6856]

[Quote:
I can almost see the design/eval process. JMB reads specs, submits design. Someone says, "Hmm, I got it cocked, now what? This thing needs some kind of safety device." JMB adds a grip safety, someone else says, "What's that grip thingy for? What this thing needs a thumb actuated safety." JMB adds a thumb safety, someone says "Hey, no one carries a pistol cocked. Don't use that safety thingy." JMB puts a wide spur on the hammer and hopes for the best.]​

John Browning didn't decide those things. He did what he was asked to do by the people who paid his salary...no more and no less.

I was afraid my fanciful description of the design process would annoy someone. It wasn't intended as a credentialed statement of fact, just a comment of design processes in general. My bad on the cavalry carry and Condition 2.

Question: Without the thumb safety on the 1910, what kept the hammer and sear pins in place? I'm guessing they were a tighter fit than on the 1911 with the flattened flare heads.

 

[1911Tuner]

Without the thumb safety on the 1910, what kept the hammer and sear pins in place? I'm guessing they were a tighter fit than on the 1911 with the flattened flare heads.

Yep. They were press fit.

And you didn't annoy anyone.

 

[JRH6856]

Yep. They were press fit.

And you didn't annoy anyone.

A press fit would make detailed stripping harder, which makes the addition of the thumb safety even more significant from a maintenance perspective. Especially since the original thumb safety can be used as a take down tool to remove the mainspring housing pin. (I'll refrain from another fancification of the design process but I can almost see the light bulb lighting)

 

[1911Tuner]

Back to the topic of exposed triggers in holsters.

Jim K's description of his draw is exactly how Bill Jordan managed a .27 second draw and hit from signal to shot...and he wasn't the only one who practiced that.

He was one of many honest-to-god gunmen who weren't as concerned with Cooper's rules as they were in staying alive.
Jelly Bryce was one. Ed Cantrell...who Jordan described as being "A mite bit faster than me" was another one who started his trigger pull as soon as his hand closed on the gun.

They knew that drawing their guns...lining up the sights...and then reaching for the trigger could very likely result in never getting off a shot...or not getting it off in time to do them any good. In a deadly encounter, seconds don't count. Fractions of seconds count.

This method is part of an automatic firing sequence that...once started...is nearly impossible to stop in time to keep from firing the shot. Usually done with double-action revolvers, it can be modified to work with other platforms, including single-action autopistols such as the 1911. The key is timing the trigger to break the instant the gun is lined up on target. It requires a lot of slow, dry practice, gradually increasing speed until it can be done in a blur of motion. It's risky. One hitch in the getalong means that the gun fires before it's on target. That's why it requires continued practice...or as I read once:

"The amateur practices until he gets it right. The professional practices until he can't get it wrong."

 

[JRH6856]

They knew that drawing their guns...lining up the sights...and then reaching for the trigger could very likely result in never getting off a shot...or not getting it off in time to do them any good. In a deadly encounter, seconds don't count. Fractions of seconds count.

There is a difference between playing games and staying alive.

 

[Nom de Forum]

As far as which condition the Army carries their guns in is completely dependent upon the level of danger from hostile forces.

You didn't spend any time near hostiles while serving in the Army did you? If you had you would know that is not necessarily true.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Back to the topic of exposed triggers in holsters.

Jim K's description of his draw is exactly how Bill Jordan managed a .27 second draw and hit from signal to shot...and he wasn't the only one who practiced that.

He was one of many honest-to-god gunmen who weren't as concerned with Cooper's rules as they were in staying alive.
Jelly Bryce was one. Ed Cantrell...who Jordan described as being "A mite bit faster than me" was another one who started his trigger pull as soon as his hand closed on the gun.

They knew that drawing their guns...lining up the sights...and then reaching for the trigger could very likely result in never getting off a shot...or not getting it off in time to do them any good. In a deadly encounter, seconds don't count. Fractions of seconds count.

This method is part of an automatic firing sequence that...once started...is nearly impossible to stop in time to keep from firing the shot. Usually done with double-action revolvers, it can be modified to work with other platforms, including single-action autopistols such as the 1911. The key is timing the trigger to break the instant the gun is lined up on target. It requires a lot of slow, dry practice, gradually increasing speed until it can be done in a blur of motion. It's risky. One hitch in the getalong means that the gun fires before it's on target. That's why it requires continued practice...or as I read once:

"The amateur practices until he gets it right. The professional practices until he can't get it wrong."

I'm not so sure starting the trigger pull that early in the draw was necessary to attain those firing from a draw speeds. What is your source for that information? I don't recall anything like that in Jordan's book or any comment from Bryce or Cantrell.

 

[Old Fuff]

I'll back Tuner's statement concerning Bill Jordan, because Bill personally told me during a conversation that he started to pull the trigger as soon as his draw started, and he didn't "speed draw" unless he intended to shoot, because in the time span of the draw there wasn't time to stop.

If you saw him do it you'd be a believer.