Why an exposed trigger in a holster?

[1911Tuner]

What is your source for that information?

From Jordan himself, after witnessing his fast draw and hearing his explanation as to how he attained those speeds.

And it's described in No Second Place Winners. Read it again.

Cantrell and Jordan were friends and competed together and against each other, and they compared notes and shared tricks and tips. It only stands to reason that they'd use the same methods.

I've seen pictures of Bryce caught in mid-draw. The hammer was moving back as the gun cleared the leather, and in another photo in the sequence...was almost at the break point while the gun was still slightly below point. When he demonstrated his speed without the intent to fire, he didn't pull the trigger.

I'm not so sure starting the trigger pull that early in the draw was necessary to attain those firing from a draw speeds.

Just to fire round...possibly not. To hit aspirin tablets consistently at that speed, you can pretty much bet that it was necessary.

On Jordan:

If you saw him do it you'd be a believer.

If you blinked at the wrong instant, you'd never see him move.

 

[NavyLCDR]

You didn't spend any time near hostiles while serving in the Army did you? If you had you would know that is not necessarily true.

Blanket statements about in what condition the Army carries their firearms are just false. As are blanket statements about what condition any service carries their firearms. We have these things called ROE - Rules of Engagement - that defines when firearms are carried fully unloaded, partially loaded or condition 1.

I went to Army Basic Training at Ft. Dix, NJ in 1984 followed by Unit Supply and Armorer training at Ft. Lee, VA. Then I went back to Army Ground Combat Training at Ft. Dix, NJ in 2008 prior to deploying on the ground in Iraq as an Individual Augmentee (IA) - that's when the Army can't handle things on their own and they have to ask the other services to send people to help them out.

 

[Nom de Forum]

1911Tuner,

I'll pull out my autographed copy and have a look. Thanks. I still have some doubt it was necessary, even to hit asprin tablets.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Blanket statements about in what condition the Army carries their firearms are just false. As are blanket statements about what condition any service carries their firearms. We have this things called ROE - Rules of Engagement - that defines when firearms are carried fully unloaded, partially loaded or condition 1.

I went to Army Basic Training at Ft. Dix, NJ in 1984 followed by Unit Supply and Armorer training at Ft. Lee, VA. Then I went back to Army Ground Combat Training at Ft. Dix, NJ in 2008 prior to deploying on the ground in Iraq as an Individual Augmentee (IA) - that's when the Army can't handle things on their own and they have to ask the other services to send people to help them out.

We may have crossed paths. I am surprised you think Rules of Engagement defining weapon status are rationally adopted based on threat. They are often heavily influenced by Command personality and politics.

 

[1911Tuner]

I still have some doubt it was necessary, even to hit asprin tablets.

*shrug*

Regardless...that's how he did it...and he wasn't the only one. Since his technique was about staying alive...he felt that it was necessary, or he'd have never gone to the trouble to perfect it and take it to that level.

 

[Nom de Forum]

1911Tuner,

I'll pull out my autographed copy and have a look. Thanks. I still have some doubt it was necessary, even to hit asprin tablets.

You are indeed correct 1911Tuner, it is on page 61 of No Second Place Winner. On the same page he mentions how dangerous this technique is to learn. He warns about shooting oneself in the leg. To me this technique is one of those things that can be done, but really should not be done because the need for it is so remote it does not warrant the consequences of the worst case scenario. I still doubt it was necessary to achieve that speed. Even if it was, how many milliseconds of delay would have been incurred if the trigger pull was delayed until the muzzle was pointed down and forward of any body part? Anyone know a modern DA revolver fastdraw expert who could comment on this?

 

[1911Tuner]

To me this technique is one of those things that can be done, but really should not be done because the need for it is so remote it does not warrant the consequences of the worst case scenario. I still doubt it was necessary to achieve that speed. Even if it was, how many milliseconds of delay would have been incurred if the trigger pull was delayed until the muzzle was pointed down and forward of any body part?

Jordan perfected it specifically for the worst case scenario. He understood...as did Bryce and Cantrell...that men live or die in fractions of seconds, and if they could hit first in a fraction...their odds of surviving intact went up.

They understood that they had to be lucky every time the other guy pulled the trigger...and that he only had to get lucky once.

And they just refused to trust it to luck...so they practiced a dangerous move for dangerous situations.

 

[Nom de Forum]

*shrug*

Regardless...that's how he did it...and he wasn't the only one. Since his technique was about staying alive...he felt that it was necessary, or he'd have never gone to the trouble to perfect it and take it to that level.

Shrug? Really?

How about that is how they started to learn not realizing how soon they were pulling the trigger and the risk of doing so? They may have had the extreme confidence of youth that arrogantly believes nothing bad can happen to them. They may have been lucky during the steep and dangerous learning curve to have not shot themselves. When near the top of the curve muscle memory may have finally reduce the possibility of error to insignificance. Do you really think they perfected this technique to that level of performance just out of belief it was necessary to staying alive. Yeah, I don't think so. I have known too many cocky young men with guns both with and without badges. Nobody with an ounce of sense today would adopt this technique except for self-aggrandizement. Training time is far better spent on learning how to recognize and avoid situations where Bill Jordan level speed of draw is needed than spent training to use a hazardous technique for a very remote possibility that a safer technique would not be fast enough. Do you really think a safer technique that may be .01 of second slower isn't going to be fast enough?

 

[Nom de Forum]

Jordan perfected it specifically for the worst case scenario. He understood...as did Bryce and Cantrell...that men live or die in fractions of seconds, and if they could hit first in a fraction...their odds of surviving intact went up.

They understood that they had to be lucky every time the other guy pulled the trigger...and that he only had to get lucky once.

And they just refused to trust it to luck...so they practiced a dangerous move for dangerous situations.

They probably did think this even if it was unrealistic. Unlike competition, pistol gunfights are rarely won by hundreths or thousandths of a second. Perhaps if the technique was foolproof in hitting the brainstem of your adversary it would be an acceptable hazard to learn it.

 

[NavyLCDR]

We may have crossed paths. I am surprised you think Rules of Engagement defining weapon status are rationally adopted based on threat. They are often heavily influenced by Command personality and politics.

I do agree that ROEs are more (if not solely) influenced by politics. However, within each ROE for a specific region/zone, there are usually differing levels of weapons readiness depending (somewhat) on the threat level.

For example, in garrison in the green zone (Camp Liberty and Camp Victory in Baghdad) we carried firearms completely unloaded. On personnel movement convoys along relatively safe routes (such as between Camp Libery and Baghdad International Airport), we carried M-4s that were magazine loaded only, with no round chambered.

Inside the United States, DEFCONs set the level of weapons readiness - at least when I was OIC of remote aircraft maintenance locations during exercises.

 

[farm23]

Way back in the 50's a class mate and I were practicing fast draw with SA 45's at the city dump. I ended up taking him to the emergence room with a 45 thru his thigh. Fortunately it was a clean thru shot and he recovered fully. I carry my SA revolvers in Threeperson type holsters but do not put my finger on the trigger till it is cleared. I have no need to be any faster.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

Shrug? Really?

How about that is how they started to learn not realizing how soon they were pulling the trigger and the risk of doing so? They may have had the extreme confidence of youth that arrogantly believes nothing bad can happen to them. They may have been lucky during the steep and dangerous learning curve to have not shot themselves. When near the top of the curve muscle memory may have finally reduce the possibility of error to insignificance. Do you really think they perfected this technique to that level of performance just out of belief it was necessary to staying alive. Yeah, I don't think so. I have known too many cocky young men with guns both with and without badges. Nobody with an ounce of sense today would adopt this technique except for self-aggrandizement. Training time is far better spent on learning how to recognize and avoid situations where Bill Jordan level speed of draw is needed than spent training to use a hazardous technique for a very remote possibility that a safer technique would not be fast enough. Do you really think a safer technique that may be .01 of second slower isn't going to be fast enough?

Men like Jordan knew that they were going to be in gunfights. Avoidance isn't much use when you wear a badge. Knowing that they were going to be in gunfights, they trained to gain every possible advantage.

Does .01 second make a difference? Well...consider that the venerable .45 ACP travels at 830 feet per second. In a hundredth of a second, it will travel 8.3 feet. Fast draw technique is most useful in sudden encounters at close range, so an advantage of .01 second may very well mean that your opponent won't ever get his shot off.

 

[Iggy]

Cantrell and I were in the same Patrol Division before he quit. Scary SOB, nuff sed.

I shot with both guys at different times. What I learned from Bill got me home more than once. He was dang sure faster than Cantrell.

 

[Jim K]

Golly, folks, let me know when you invent a time machine and I will go back and make sure I never take less than 32 minutes to get my gun into action. Oh, and get permission from the FBI, CIA, NSA, EPA and my sainted grandmother.

"There is a difference between playing games and staying alive." Yep, but how do you learn the skills to stay alive if you never "play games", aka, practice?

Jim

 

[Iggy]

Bill said work on smooth, fast will come.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Men like Jordan knew that they were going to be in gunfights.

Of course they did.

Avoidance isn't much use when you wear a badge.

Avoidance is HUGELY of use when you wear a badge. Your comment is so silly, I hope you rethink and retract to save me the time in explaining. While you are doing that rethink, research the phrase “situational awareness”.

Knowing that they were going to be in gunfights, they trained to gain every possible advantage.

I am sure they did. We all know the techniques they used are still considered state of the art in law enforcement and fast gun handling.

Does .01 second make a difference? Well...consider that the venerable .45 ACP travels at 830 feet per second. In a hundredth of a second, it will travel 8.3 feet. Fast draw technique is most useful in sudden encounters at close range, so an advantage of .01 second may very well mean that your opponent won't ever get his shot off.

Then and now people shot with pistols, no matter how fast the shot is delivered, are almost never incapacitated to the point it would interrupt an already initiated, determined attempt to fire. When we all start using phasers, that instantly begin the vaporization of assailants, .01 of a second will be an insurmountable advantage and it will perhaps be worth adopting very hazardous to your safety fastdraw techniques.

Bill Jordan was as an incredibly talented shooter and great law enforcement officer. I very much appreciate and respect this. If he were starting out today I don't think his technique would be considered by law enforcement for even a millisecond as appropriate training for anyone other than civilian exhibition shooters.

 

[Nom de Forum]

....... What I learned from Bill got me home more than once.

I don't doubt for a second that it did. I am sure much of what Jordan knew and did to stay alive are still very good practices.

I hope nobody thinks I am attacking Bill Jordan's reputation. I am merely applying critical analysis to one of his techniques.

 

[JRH6856]

"There is a difference between playing games and staying alive." Yep, but how do you learn the skills to stay alive if you never "play games", aka, practice?

Nope. But the difference I was referring to is if you only practice to win games by playing within the rules and staying safe, you may not learn enough to stay alive. (YMMV)

 

[Nom de Forum]

Golly, folks, let me know when you invent a time machine and I will go back and make sure I never take less than 32 minutes to get my gun into action. Oh, and get permission from the FBI, CIA, NSA, EPA and my sainted grandmother.

"There is a difference between playing games and staying alive." Yep, but how do you learn the skills to stay alive if you never "play games", aka, practice?

Jim

You already have a time machine. It is called your memory. How many times when using that technique at full speed did you fire into the ground or before being on target? How much practice time did it take before your never fired into the ground or before being on target? The problem with Jordan's technique is that to be safe it requires practicing until you can't get it wrong but that first requires a very hazardous period of time practicing just to get it right.

 

[JRH6856]

I hope nobody thinks I am attacking Bill Jordan's reputation. I am merely applying critical analysis to one of his techniques.

You've got the critical part down pat.

 

[JRH6856]

The problem with Jordan's technique is that to be safe it requires practicing until you can't get it wrong but that first requires a very hazardous period of time practicing just to get it right.

It appears you expect 100% safety and 0% risk at every stage of any experience.

 

[Nom de Forum]

You've got the critical part down pat.

I sure do. I think it is very critical when training people to shoot that we do not let them start pulling the trigger until on target and I know you feel the same way because of your numerous citations of Cooper's Four Rules.

 

[Old Fuff]

The problem with Jordan's technique is that to be safe it requires practicing until you can't get it wrong but that first requires a very hazardous period of time practicing just to get it right.

Not really. His usual procedure was to first explain the "what and how" part followed by practice drawing with an unloaded revolver. When the necessary skill was perfected the next step was shooting using cartridges that were loaded with wax bullets propelled by a primer, and no powder. The last step, after the others were mastered was to advance to regular ammunition. I have never heard of a student shooting themselves while Bill was doing the tutoring.

 

[Nom de Forum]

It appears you expect 100% safety and 0% risk at every stage of any experience.

How can you possibly write that with a straight face. Nothing I have posted supports that perception. I have never expected that. You think I would have jumped out of so many perfectly good airplanes if I expected "0% risk at every stage of any experience"? I am a very strong believer in calculating risk to prevent actions that the consequence of error is catastrophic. With regard to Jordan's draw technique; just how many extra thousandths of a second would be added by delaying the trigger pull until the muzzle is pointed a few degrees away from the body?

 

[JRH6856]

I sure do. I think it is very critical when training people to shoot that we do not let them start pulling the trigger until on target and I know you feel the same way because of your numerous citations of Cooper's Four Rules.

When training people in current times to shoot at paper targets in hopes of getting high scores and/or playing a game that might give them some skills that might improve their chances of surviving an unlikely but possible encounter with an armed assailant, a risk/reward analysis mitigates towards prioritizing safety at every stage of training and practice because the likelihood of the high risk encounter is low and the risk of injury or death is higher during training.

But that is not the same as an experienced Border Patrol Agent in an earlier time period preparing for an anticipated, violently dangerous, and life-threatening work experience that has a high probability of occurring each and every day. A risk/reward analysis mitigates towards taking higher risks in training to develop peak skills because the likelihood of an even higher risk encounter where those skills will be needed is very high. The goal is to take greater risk in a controlled situation (practice) in order to have greater control in the high risk encounter and increasing the chances of survival.

The goal in both cases is to increase the chances of survival where the risk is the greatest by lowering the risk. Sometimes this may allow a reduction in overall risk. Sometimes it only allows spreading the risk. In Jordan's case, he probably felt it it was worth increasing the risk of shooting the ground to reduce the risk of being shot himself.

And that part about a very hazardous period practicing just to get it right? i wonder if he did that with live ammo or dry-fire until he was confident of being on target? (I see Old Fuff has answered that).