Why are external extractors so bad on 1911's?

[beltjones]

I'm puzzled by this.

When Kimber did it it was blasphemy, and yet Sig's 1911's (at least a model or two) have external extractors and it seems ok.

Browning of course designed the 1911 to have an internal extractor, but later designed the Hi-Power with an external extractor.

So what gives?

 

[10-Ring]

For me it's a tradition thing so the external extractor just doesn't seem right -- kinda like armpit hair on a supermodel --
Plus a properly tuned internal extractor works fine as do the ones on my 1911s

 

[Baldy]

I have two S&W's that have never failed to extract. One has about 6,000rds through it and the other about 3,000 or so. I have Kimber's with the IE and they have never failed either but they only have about half the rounds of the S&W's.

 

[DoubleAction]

The internal extractor is to prevent dirt and debris from entering the chamber. My P-220 German Sig Sauers all have internal extractors.

 

[f4t9r]

Kimber seems to have the biggest problem with external.
They have switched back and things are much better.

 

[Beagle-zebub]

All internal 1911 extractors are not created equal. There seems to be a general consensus that S&W 1911s have quite reliable extractors, which makes sense, given that Smiff has been making external extractor pistols at least since 1955.

 

[BHPshooter]

Browning of course designed the 1911 to have an internal extractor, but later designed the Hi-Power with an external extractor.

Wrong. BHPs had internal extractors from their introduction until 1962. The change to the external extractor was done partially as a cost-cutting measure, but they also happen to work better.

IMO, it's considered "blasphemous" to 1911 fans simply because it's different. Personally, I prefer an external extractor.

Wes

 

[ugaarguy]

Internal extractors can be removed and cleaned without tools. This is part of the overall 1911 design which does not require the use of tools to detail strip. There is also no standard for external extractors. Additionally, an internal extractor is a single part; while an external extractor assembly consists, at minimum, of the extractor, extractor spring, and extractor pin.

 

[9mmepiphany]

an good internal extractor can be just as reliable as a good external extractor

a lessor quality internal can be worst than a lessor external.

the S&W external extractor is a superior design as are the ones on the stainless slide Sig 220s.

the Problem was the Kimber external extractors was more about their execution than the design as a whole

 

[DoubleAction]

All internal 1911 extractors are not created equal. There seems to be a general consensus that S&W 1911s have quite reliable extractors, which makes sense, given that Smiff has been making external extractor pistols at least since 1955.

The S&W 1911 uses a Wilson External Extractor, which can found on the Wilson polymer frame pistol.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The S&W 1911 uses a Wilson External Extractor, which can found on the Wilson polymer frame pistol.

are you sure, S&W has been using external extractors since 1955?

 

[DoubleAction]

Springfield used a lot after market parts for their F.B.I. hostage rescue pistol. I think S&W also used a Wilson Grip safety on their 1911. I have pictures where Kimbers was being packed up at the S&W Foundry. It's not unusual to the have sort thing going on between firearms manufactures. ​

 

[Hostile Amish]

S&W 1911 extractors work well.

 

[SwampWolf]

are you sure, S&W has been using external extractors since 1955?

Actually, since 1954 with the advent of the first (steel) Model 39s and subsequently with just about (if not all) every Smith & Wesson centerfire semi-auto manufactured thereafter.

 

[Jim Watson]

The thing that bothers me about S&W1911 external extractors is that they have two of them. The standard production models get a narrow hook like their double action guns', the Performance Center and the new "Pro Series" guns get a wide extractor like Wilson KZ, Sig, and Caspian. I wonder why the narrow one is not good enough for their high dollar guns or, if the wide one is superior, why it is not used across the lineup.

Hilton Yam is the only one in the room smart enough to cast doubt upon the regular S&W, I wonder what he thinks about the wide version.

 

[sohcgt2]

Who said external extractors were bad. Just because they are not part of the first design doesn't make them bad. In most cases external extractors are stronger, less prone to wear and more reliable. I don't think this would be untrue when applied to a 1911. A 1911 with an external extractor can actually call itself "new and improved", which has not happened many times since it was introduced a century ago.

 

[Spartacus451]

They aren't bad in principle. However there are several flawed designs and flawed implementations out there. Usually the extractor interferes with feeding or fails to retain the head of the case against the breech face after the barrel unlocks but before it has reached the ejector resulting in undesirable interactions between the extracted casing and the magazine. Nice run on sentence for ya.

The beauty of the internal extractor is that it requires very little tension to operate due to the way it is anchored in the slide. I would accept no other design in .45

 

[CWL]

External extractors for M1911s was a good idea, this allowed for easier tuning & replacement of something that could go wrong. Ones fitted to early model M1911s and semi-customs didn't have a problem.

Kimber screwed up royally because of QC issues, it wasn't a problem with design but in execution. Because of the bad 'rep' they had earned with their external extractor models, they had to go back to internals.

 

[Jim Watson]

You ever talk to S&W about getting a replacement so you can change out one of their externals or just have a spare? From what I have read, they won't discuss it, you don't have the gauges and torque bars required to install it properly. What a torque bar is or what it does to an extractor, I don't know.

 

[TAB]

As long as they work, I don't care.

I have never had a extrator prob from the factory.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Browning of course designed the 1911 to have an internal extractor, but later designed the Hi-Power with an external extractor.

If memory serves me right JMB or Dieudonne Saive designed the weapon to have an internal extractor and it did in fact have just that until the 60s sometime when FN changed it to the external. Supposedly it improved reliabilty. The jury is still out on that one.

As for 1911s I chuckle to myself as I hear Massad Ayoob on Kimber trying out external extractors then going back to the internal: There are two things you should never mess with: Mother Nature and John Browning.

Here is a pic from a recent post here of an internal extractor HP.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5516223&postcount=8

 

[Jim K]

The reason some M1911 clones have a problem with external extractors is that to work right, the ejection port has to be lowered and reshaped slightly. The internal extractor is slightly below the bottom edge of the port and an extractor placed higher doesn't quite work as well.

Browning used both types in his pistols, but the internal extractor allowed takedown without bench tools, an Army requirement. An external extractor usually requires a pin punch to remove.

Jim