Up until last month I had used the same FFL for close to 10 years for mail order purchases. Last gun I received he informed that he would no longer accept any more guns for transfer from individuals due to the hassles he has incurred lately (including the gun from a fellow I had just picked up). His requirement for accepting a gun from an individual was for me to provide the seller's address and phone number and he would contact them for a copy of their driver's license. He would mail the seller a copy of his FFL and tell them to include it with the gun, make sure the gun was empty and require an adult signature when shipping. The fellow I purchased this gun from shipped the gun but refused to send a copy of his driver's license until the FFL called him again and told him he would not deliver the gun until he received it. Needless to say I would never buy another gun from this individual as his actions resulted in me having to find another FFL to handle my transfers. I personally think the FFL acted a little irrational due to the fact that I have had many more "easy" transfers but I do see his point about not wanting to deal with people that don't follow simple instructions.
Why are FFL's often reluctant to receive from non-licensees?
- Thread starter bushmaster1313
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RhinoDefense
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Never send an FFL to an unlicensed person. Ever.
Birch Knoll
Member
It should be sufficient to give an unlicensed person your first 3 and last 5 digits of your license number, and let them confirm your status on ATF's online FFL EzCheck system.
In this day and age, it ought to be sufficient for licensees, as well. Instead, we mail, email and fax around copies of paper documents that anyone with a scanner and an image editor can alter.
In this day and age, it ought to be sufficient for licensees, as well. Instead, we mail, email and fax around copies of paper documents that anyone with a scanner and an image editor can alter.
MtnCreek
Member
Why is that?
Birch Knoll
Member
Because possession of that slip of paper is taken as proof of licensure. FFLs fear that an unlicensed person will use that copy of their FFL to acquire firearms.
dogtown tom
Member
True.
Any middle schooler can scan and fake an FFL in about fifteen minutes. The security of the system depends almost entirely with people verifying the license. A faked addresss on an FFL will be pretty darn obvious when you verify through EzCheck.
There is ABSOLUTELY no liability on the part of any dealer who gives out his FFL to ANYONE.
For in person dealer to dealer transfers, failing to verify and record the identity of the person handing you his FFL for your gun is just carelessness, not to mention stupid.
For shipping, the liability lies with the person shipping the gun. ATF strongly recommends that each FFL be verified using the FFL EzCheck.
nyresq
Member
Some dealers can't legally accept from individuals because of state and local laws. yes the feds say you as a private citizen can ship a gun to an FFL, but for instance, here in NY, local law says any handguns from out of state must be shipped to NY by an FFL. Complain to the dealer all you want, but its a law. I am pretty sure CT has the same law. Long guns are fine shipped to NY from an individual, but not pistols.
I am sure as things get tighter on both the fed and state laws with regard to shipping, you will see more states adopt similar laws.
I am sure as things get tighter on both the fed and state laws with regard to shipping, you will see more states adopt similar laws.
RhinoDefense
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State stuff can suck. In MI, we have pistol registration (thanks KKK) so when an owner disposes of the pistol to us we have a state form that transfers the registration from them to us and we have to send it to the state police firearms bureau. Wouldn't be all that bad, paperwork-wise, but it HAS to be notarized and the FFL nor any employee of the FFL can be a public notary, due to conflict of nature. Stupid.
This state law was enacted in 1925 far ahead of the NFA or GCA, but still, it needs to be eliminated.
This state law was enacted in 1925 far ahead of the NFA or GCA, but still, it needs to be eliminated.
Carl N. Brown
Member
Tennessee had a state law that required that application for permission to purchase a handgun had to be signed off by CLEO (chief of police or county sheriff) with an up to fifteen day waiting period (which in my purchases was often overnight mail sheriff to dealer; walking into the police station for background check cut one wait to 15 minutes; and my mother was fingerprinted to buy a gun as a Christmas present for my stepdad). When the federal Brady Act was instituted with NICS, Tennessee dropped the state purchase permit and waiting period and left vetting gun buyers to the feds.
Gun dealers are often subject to state regulations that go back to the 1920s Uniform State Handgun laws proposed the Revolver Association as an alternate to prohibition of handguns. There are more gun laws than just the federal gun laws.
Gun dealers are often subject to state regulations that go back to the 1920s Uniform State Handgun laws proposed the Revolver Association as an alternate to prohibition of handguns. There are more gun laws than just the federal gun laws.
Tn had a thumbprint requirement to purchase up until 2 years ago. One courageous forward thinking dealer who shall not be named approached Rep Casada and had him sponsor legislation to remove it. The TBI, which does our checks, was very relieved. Shockingly there has been NO increase in crime since that measure lapsed.
NavyLCDR
member
nyresq said:
There is no New York State law which requires a handgun to be shipped to a New York FFL by an FFL just because it is coming from out of state.
RhinoDefense
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Notice nyresq stated "local law says", not state law. Local.
EOD Guy
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NavyLCDR said:
You are correct. However, the New York State Police require it. Until a court slaps them down, that's how New York dealers have to operate.
nyresq
Member
Local,meaning LOCAL...Although NYSP requires it, most counties have passed laws. My county passed a law in the early 90's for any handgun. Rifles still fly under the radar...
dirtyjim
Member
in my experiences most ffls that don't want to receive from non-licensees do not believe an individual has the right to sell a firearm.
they believe every one should have to buy from them.
they cant get it though their brain that many of use collect vintage sporting rifles that are only available on the used market therefore we must use transfers or buy a plane ticket every other week.
it getting to the point that i would prefer to buy a plane ticket instead of dealing with another remchester selling moron of a dealer.
they believe every one should have to buy from them.
they cant get it though their brain that many of use collect vintage sporting rifles that are only available on the used market therefore we must use transfers or buy a plane ticket every other week.
it getting to the point that i would prefer to buy a plane ticket instead of dealing with another remchester selling moron of a dealer.
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dirtyjim
Member
the vast majority do, and a transfer is the only reason i have to set foot in a gunshop.
there are two pawnshops i now use for transfers and anything else i need is delived to my door.
i have 4 off the shelf rifles and over 100 customs and project rifles. the vast majority of my buys come from gunbroker followed by pawnshops then internet forums. i've bought one rifle, a rem799 new off the shelf in the last 20years. the latest wizbang rifle in the latest wizbang caliber is of no interst to me, my intersts are in classic sporting rifles.
i don't mind paying for the service but i'm not going to get <deleted> either.
i have a c&r and 90% of the time i don't have to deal with an ffl but the 10% i do seem to be the problem sales.
out of close to 100 rifles shipped to me the majority of problems actually came from ffl's not individuals.
there are two pawnshops i now use for transfers and anything else i need is delived to my door.
i have 4 off the shelf rifles and over 100 customs and project rifles. the vast majority of my buys come from gunbroker followed by pawnshops then internet forums. i've bought one rifle, a rem799 new off the shelf in the last 20years. the latest wizbang rifle in the latest wizbang caliber is of no interst to me, my intersts are in classic sporting rifles.
i don't mind paying for the service but i'm not going to get <deleted> either.
i have a c&r and 90% of the time i don't have to deal with an ffl but the 10% i do seem to be the problem sales.
out of close to 100 rifles shipped to me the majority of problems actually came from ffl's not individuals.
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skipjack
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Somebody needs a hug!
RhinoDefense
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There's over 60,000 FFLs in the country. I seriously doubt a "vast majority" have the same opinion you claim they have. In fact, over the years I've never met an FFL that thought that way.
bushmaster1313
Member
Reading the posts it sounds like the driving force is the potential hassle factor.
An FFL is not going to make a bundle on a transfer and if there is no easy way to return the item or get the required information from the non-FFL sellor the transaction quickly eats the profit if multiple transfers
An FFL is not going to make a bundle on a transfer and if there is no easy way to return the item or get the required information from the non-FFL sellor the transaction quickly eats the profit if multiple transfers
Just reading three pages of arguing is hassle enough. I have a dealer who will take delivery of firearms at no charge as long as it is not a new firearm that he has in stock or one he can obtain from one of his vendors in a couple of days. It is amazing how many people buy new guns from a discount place like Bud's, etc., then expect him to take delivery for a nominal fee. :banghead:
As far as FFL holders not knowing the law, that could be. But I know FFL holders who are very much aware of the law, but the business rules they have in place (for whatever reason) exceed federal regs.
Because Non FFL's can be idiots.
Case in point, non-FFL guy selling AR15 receivers on a popular auction site. He wants a signed FFL to complete the transaction. FFL sends him one, is going to accept receiver for the auction winner.
Some time later, auction winner brings AR lower to FFL.
Upon FFL receipt and payment, non FFL guy sends lower receiver directly to auction winner. Non FFL guy later said, he did not realize a lower receiver was considered a firearm.
Now why should an FFL put himself at any risk of having his books examined, increased paperwork, increased time spent on transaction, having to report idiots to the BATF, by dealing with non FFL’s?
Case in point, non-FFL guy selling AR15 receivers on a popular auction site. He wants a signed FFL to complete the transaction. FFL sends him one, is going to accept receiver for the auction winner.
Some time later, auction winner brings AR lower to FFL.
Upon FFL receipt and payment, non FFL guy sends lower receiver directly to auction winner. Non FFL guy later said, he did not realize a lower receiver was considered a firearm.
Now why should an FFL put himself at any risk of having his books examined, increased paperwork, increased time spent on transaction, having to report idiots to the BATF, by dealing with non FFL’s?
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