Steel Horse Rider
Member
I also come from a Tool and Die Maker background many years ago and I can't believe guns are so cheap, especially a lot of the military surplus stuff that have machined receivers.
Why Are Guns So Expensive?
- Thread starter Kynoch
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Bubbles pretty much has it nailed. Go pick up a representative model from a few price points... i.e. a Kel-tec pf9 ($250), a Glock or M&P($500), a P226 ($950) and then compare them objectively. Ask yourself if you would pay P226 prices for the kel tec or if you would pay P226 prices for the glock. Or if you could get the P226 or Glock at a Kel-tec price point, if you would EVER consider the kel-tec. Those questions right there should give you a fairly good understanding of current gun prices.
Are they all functionally comparable??? yes... pretty much. BUT, there are blatantly obvious and not so obvious quality differences between them. There are also implied differences between them that are not tangible.
Aside from the raw costs, it's a standard business model. You charge what people will pay for your product. If people will pay $500 for a Glock, why would they charge less??? Successful businesses don't give things away... because then they fail as a business. Glock still charges $500 (or whatever) because people aren't going to pay more than that and Glock know it. Market research, competition, etc, have determined that for them. That's why the M&P line has come down in price over the last few years. They are basically the same gun as the Glock or XD, targeted at the same buyer, but were a bit more pricey...
Beyond just physically making the gun, there is a TON of expense/cost that goes into getting on the shelf. There are operational & supply chain costs and issues, there are human resource issues (health care, etc), there is R&D, huge sales expense, insurance, massive legal expense - thanks to our litigious society and those morons who refuse to accept responsibility for being stupid, taxes, growth costs, depreciation, the cost of future uncertainty, I could go on and on.
And if you think they are making a ton of money on their sales, you would be right... but ONLY in the last couple of years and it's because of volume and increasingly lenient gun laws (for however long that lasts). Check the history of some of our long time american gun companies.... They change owners every decade or so. Even Smith & Wesson was restructured and sold a few years ago (I think it was around 2005). Now they are publicly traded as the Smith & Wesson Holding Company (SWHC). The SWHC example will show you that they were SUCKING as a company for the last several years... last NOV the stock price was a tick above $2 per share. Today, 8 months later, the stock is trading a almost $10 per share - 500% increase... for two reasons... 1) they can't keep up with demand, selling guns as fast as they make them, and 2) election speculation.
Further, if you look at historical gun prices relative to something like minimum wage you will see that the buying power of the average consumer has actually increased relative to the prices of most popular guns. For example, I bought a Mossberg 500 back in '93 for around $150. I can buy the same gun today for only $200. I remember in '96, I paid $0.95/gallon of gas that summer and the same gallon of gas today is costing $3.50ish. To further put it into perspective, around that same time ('96), I was buying a 550 brick of .22 for around $4/box. That same box costs me almost $20 today. I have a lot of examples... Have gun prices really gone up THAT much? I honestly don't think so. I think they are very much in line with market demand and, in many cases, actually underpriced relative to what the industry probably should/could charge for them.
Are they all functionally comparable??? yes... pretty much. BUT, there are blatantly obvious and not so obvious quality differences between them. There are also implied differences between them that are not tangible.
Aside from the raw costs, it's a standard business model. You charge what people will pay for your product. If people will pay $500 for a Glock, why would they charge less??? Successful businesses don't give things away... because then they fail as a business. Glock still charges $500 (or whatever) because people aren't going to pay more than that and Glock know it. Market research, competition, etc, have determined that for them. That's why the M&P line has come down in price over the last few years. They are basically the same gun as the Glock or XD, targeted at the same buyer, but were a bit more pricey...
Beyond just physically making the gun, there is a TON of expense/cost that goes into getting on the shelf. There are operational & supply chain costs and issues, there are human resource issues (health care, etc), there is R&D, huge sales expense, insurance, massive legal expense - thanks to our litigious society and those morons who refuse to accept responsibility for being stupid, taxes, growth costs, depreciation, the cost of future uncertainty, I could go on and on.
And if you think they are making a ton of money on their sales, you would be right... but ONLY in the last couple of years and it's because of volume and increasingly lenient gun laws (for however long that lasts). Check the history of some of our long time american gun companies.... They change owners every decade or so. Even Smith & Wesson was restructured and sold a few years ago (I think it was around 2005). Now they are publicly traded as the Smith & Wesson Holding Company (SWHC). The SWHC example will show you that they were SUCKING as a company for the last several years... last NOV the stock price was a tick above $2 per share. Today, 8 months later, the stock is trading a almost $10 per share - 500% increase... for two reasons... 1) they can't keep up with demand, selling guns as fast as they make them, and 2) election speculation.
Further, if you look at historical gun prices relative to something like minimum wage you will see that the buying power of the average consumer has actually increased relative to the prices of most popular guns. For example, I bought a Mossberg 500 back in '93 for around $150. I can buy the same gun today for only $200. I remember in '96, I paid $0.95/gallon of gas that summer and the same gallon of gas today is costing $3.50ish. To further put it into perspective, around that same time ('96), I was buying a 550 brick of .22 for around $4/box. That same box costs me almost $20 today. I have a lot of examples... Have gun prices really gone up THAT much? I honestly don't think so. I think they are very much in line with market demand and, in many cases, actually underpriced relative to what the industry probably should/could charge for them.
Bubbles
Member
I also note the OP is in CA, so his OTD price on guns will be a lot higher due to CA's state regs. Dealers have to charge higher transfer fees and collect sales taxes on out-of-state transfers, there is DROS on handguns, waiting periods (it costs money to keep a bunch of guns in a safe for 10 days), etc.
oneounceload
member
If you think gun prices are high here, try looking at what they cost in other countries - we have it pretty good on most counts
JohnBT
Member
"Why are Glocks essentially the same price as they were 20 years ago?"
Because they were grossly overpriced (with huge profit margin) 20 years ago? Mr. Glock made a lot of money in a hurry, didn't he?
Because they were grossly overpriced (with huge profit margin) 20 years ago? Mr. Glock made a lot of money in a hurry, didn't he?
WinThePennant
Member
Inflation does not affect all products equally. In fact, inflation has always been uneven across products and services.
What will the market pay for a product, and supply and demand. Americans are buying more than 1 million guns a month. I don't think there's ever been such demand for guns as there is today. Actually, I think gun makers have done a pretty good job of keeping prices LOW relative to the demand there is today for their product.
What will the market pay for a product, and supply and demand. Americans are buying more than 1 million guns a month. I don't think there's ever been such demand for guns as there is today. Actually, I think gun makers have done a pretty good job of keeping prices LOW relative to the demand there is today for their product.
oneounceload
member
SO? GOOD for him - he saw a market need and filled it
I actually don't think guns are that expensive. They at least hold their value very well.
Tools, for example, I think are expensive. One Snap-On 3/8's ratchet can cost you over a hundred bucks. A set of combination wrenches will set you back over 300.
Tools, for example, I think are expensive. One Snap-On 3/8's ratchet can cost you over a hundred bucks. A set of combination wrenches will set you back over 300.
Johannes_Paulsen
Member
It was mostly from the profits on the Glock 7. Those porcelain guns cost more than you make in a year!
Sorry I did not complete my thought. I am no expert but I wonder if it has anything to do with used guns. The prices of the used guns hold value so well that the new guns have to compete with them
X-Rap
Member
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Name any other product that is constantly under a cloud of either being banned or regulated out of existance but still allowed if it was posessed prior to any prohibition.
Import restrictions and regulation cost us all in false inflation.
If the 2A was as honored and protected as some percieved Constutional Right to Choose and we were in a pre GCA world the cost of firearms would be very reasonable.
Import restrictions and regulation cost us all in false inflation.
If the 2A was as honored and protected as some percieved Constutional Right to Choose and we were in a pre GCA world the cost of firearms would be very reasonable.
berettaprofessor
Member
I'm with several others; I think many guns are cheap. Considering all the work, I don't know how Glock at $500, Beretta at $750 for a 92, or Taurus at $500 for a 1911, can make all the parts, assemble, and sell their products OFTEN THROUGH A DISTRIBUTOR, for anywhere near that price.
MagnumDweeb
Member
Why Are Guns So Expensive? Why not?
Demand and Supply my friends, if I can sell a good at a set price per volume why wouldn't I. Especially if the public will buy it, no matter how much they complain. As a lawyer I do it frequently.
I don't want to work more than two hundred hours a month (i.e. every four weeks). At price A. I can work one hundred hours a month and make x amount. At price B. I can work three hundred hours a month (yes I've done it, and taken a four day vacation to the Keys afterwards) and make x. At price C. I can work two hundred hours a month and x amount. If at price C. I ultmately make more money (working a lesser rate than A but a greater rate than B) why wouldn't I choose option price C. Yes will the demand be there with more clients waiting to purchase my services at price C, absolutely, but my overhead and stress will be lower at option C, rather than with A where i risk having no line of waiting clients, or with B where i risk overworking myself and having no clients waiting to purchase my services as I'm servicing them all and making only as much as option price C for a great deal more work.
If I ran a gun company my approach would ultimately be the same. Where can I maximize profit, have a large back order of my product, have a loyal customer base, and yet still reduce and minimizee my overhead and risk of liability. Gun companies don't owe the purchasing public anything, they produce a product we want, and we either buy it or we don't, and if the product is too expensive, another gun company will fill the void. That's how we got Kel-Tec, Ruger, Uberti, and Cimarron amongst a slew of others.
Capitalism is the name of the game my fellow gunnies, and we are all merely pawns, the smartest of us just learn to shop smarter and be more patient.
Demand and Supply my friends, if I can sell a good at a set price per volume why wouldn't I. Especially if the public will buy it, no matter how much they complain. As a lawyer I do it frequently.
I don't want to work more than two hundred hours a month (i.e. every four weeks). At price A. I can work one hundred hours a month and make x amount. At price B. I can work three hundred hours a month (yes I've done it, and taken a four day vacation to the Keys afterwards) and make x. At price C. I can work two hundred hours a month and x amount. If at price C. I ultmately make more money (working a lesser rate than A but a greater rate than B) why wouldn't I choose option price C. Yes will the demand be there with more clients waiting to purchase my services at price C, absolutely, but my overhead and stress will be lower at option C, rather than with A where i risk having no line of waiting clients, or with B where i risk overworking myself and having no clients waiting to purchase my services as I'm servicing them all and making only as much as option price C for a great deal more work.
If I ran a gun company my approach would ultimately be the same. Where can I maximize profit, have a large back order of my product, have a loyal customer base, and yet still reduce and minimizee my overhead and risk of liability. Gun companies don't owe the purchasing public anything, they produce a product we want, and we either buy it or we don't, and if the product is too expensive, another gun company will fill the void. That's how we got Kel-Tec, Ruger, Uberti, and Cimarron amongst a slew of others.
Capitalism is the name of the game my fellow gunnies, and we are all merely pawns, the smartest of us just learn to shop smarter and be more patient.
Kynoch
member
The base cost of metals is not doubling and tripling the price of some guns. What gov't regulations has changed in the past 20 years? They were already bad 20 years ago. Many of the guns that have doubled in tripled in price already existed 20 years ago -- there has been no R&D. Yes, legal costs might be more but then how is a Glock the same price as it was 20 years ago?
Kynoch
member
Kynoch
member
No. You're still not addressing why some US-made durable goods (take the Leatherman tools for example or the Glocks) have not risen in price over the past 20 years like most guns.
Kynoch
member
How do you know?
I suspect Glocks spends quite a bit but they got things so good to begin with that they haven't added many doo-dahs to their different models.
Kynoch
member
Thank you. That makes sense. Demand. Perhaps the gunmakers have tailored their production output to almost match demand, much like Harley Davidson was able to do for many years?
Kynoch
member
A Glock 17 cost about $500.00, 20 years ago. They cost about the same today. A Ruger revolver has more than doubled in price. Why the disparity?
To suggest that guns are cheaper today than 20 years ago (even when adjusted for inflation) also doesn't address why they have risen in price so much more compared to other durable goods over the past 20 years.
Kynoch
member
You're not even addressing my question...
Most guns are 2-3X in price compared to 20 years ago. That's not true of most USA-made consumer goods. Why is that? Why guns?
Kynoch
member
Actually Glock did not sell them to the NYPD. Glock sold them to another law enforcement agency (transit? harbor?) in NYC at a greatly reduced price (Glock did NOT make good money at the deeply discounted price.)
The guns caught peoples' attention and sales went through the roof from other agencies including the NYPD.
Kynoch
member
Inflation? No. Inflation impacts all products and many are pretty much the same price as they were 20 years ago.
Supply and demand? Yes, that sounds logical.
Kynoch
member
Oh?
WinThePennant
Member
Inflation does NOT affect all things equally. Just the opposite -- It's very uneven. Especially in this day and age when "bubbles" grow and pop with some regularity.
Gold has gone up 500% in the past 10 years, or so. Computer prices have been falling for decades.
Kynoch
member
Naw. My price from a place like Bud's is identical to anyone else's. I pay a $25.00/gun record fee that some states might not have but it's not part of the gun price.
I'll ask once more. Why does a Ruger revolver cost 2-3x what it did 20 years ago? Other US-made durable goods have not spiked-up in price like that. Even Glocks have no jumped in price like that.
Obviously the biggie is supply/demand. But there seems to be more to the story.
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