Why Are Guns So Expensive?

[jrdolall]

You seem to be implying that there is a conspiracy among the major gun manufacturors. I don't see that because there are plenty of cheap American made firearms around. There are much cheaper items available from KT, HiPoint and others that make decent quality guns at considerably lower prices than S&W or Ruger yet people still pay top dollar for the name brands. The same is true of automobiles. Toyota was a cheap car in the 70s until they surpassed the US companies and raised their prces so they are now, generally speaking, more expensive than US cars. Kia makes an acceptable car but there are still more people that want a Ford. Yes the price of cars has doubled in the past 20 years.

Any major manufacturer will rause the price of their product as high as they can without ruining their business. You had better have your plan together if you walk in to the Board at S&W and tell them you want to lower prices to the same level as KT.

What purpose would it serve for Ruger to build another plant and build guns cheaper and faster? They could sell more at a lower price? Why flood the market on a durable good like a firearm so that supply exceeds demand?

Let's all make a pact to not buy a new gun for the next year. I bet prices would drop before the year ends.

 

[Kynoch]

1. Limitations/Laws on Manufacture and Distribution
2. Import limitation/trade barriers (see #1)
3. Supply limits based on #1 and #2.
4. Demand.

The firearms trade is not an open and free market by any stretch of the imagination.

If any Tom, Dick, and Sally could open up a firearms manufacturing business without all the restrictions, the cost of entry would be much lower and supply would increase to cover demand, and then some.

Like, if anyone with spare time on their CNC machine could crank out AR-15 lowers and 1911 frames and slides, and if people could order them without regard to interstate commerce crap, the bottom would drop out of the market. The rest of the parts that aren't "firearms" are already commoditized and available in infinite variety at every price point.

OK, that makes some sense. The gun-making industry has some high barriers to entry and that has caused an atmosphere where true competition does not exist. I do think that is a factor, particularly in modular guns like the AR.

 

[leadcounsel]

Guns are a bargain!!!!

Far from overpriced in my opinion. Life saving tools of self defense, representations of liberty, and quality manufacturing of small durable mechanical parts for around $200-$800 for average pistol/rifle/shotgun specimins... For average people, the price of an average gun represents only a few days' wages. A real bargain.

Factoring in R&D, FFL paperwork, liability insurance, lawyers, marketing... few other industries are so heavily and complexly regulated.

Also consider that a gun, if treated well, will retain it's value and last several lifetimes. FEW other consumer goods will do that.

Ever buy a clothes washer, refrigerator, car, table saw, wrist watch, etc.? Once it leaves the store, the value depreciates quickly. However, you could buy a Glock or SW pistol and likely recapture most of the value a few years later if you take care of it.

Try competing as a manufacturer of a product where the used market is a tight margin from the new market... not an easy task.

 

[Kynoch]

You seem to be implying that there is a conspiracy among the major gun manufacturors. I don't see that because there are plenty of cheap American made firearms around. There are much cheaper items available from KT, HiPoint and others that make decent quality guns at considerably lower prices than S&W or Ruger yet people still pay top dollar for the name brands. The same is true of automobiles. Toyota was a cheap car in the 70s until they surpassed the US companies and raised their prces so they are now, generally speaking, more expensive than US cars. Kia makes an acceptable car but there are still more people that want a Ford. Yes the price of cars has doubled in the past 20 years.

While the price of MANY us-made durable goods has not.

Any major manufacturer will rause the price of their product as high as they can without ruining their business. You had better have your plan together if you walk in to the Board at S&W and tell them you want to lower prices to the same level as KT.

That's the key. What has allowed gunmakers to raise their prices so much? Simply bulk demand? What about Glock? Why has it pretty much held its prices?

What purpose would it serve for Ruger to build another plant and build guns cheaper and faster? They could sell more at a lower price? Why flood the market on a durable good like a firearm so that supply exceeds demand?

In truly competitive market Ruger would take steps to meet demand because if they didn't, S&W and Remington would.

Let's all make a pact to not buy a new gun for the next year. I bet prices would drop before the year ends.

They would plummet! That raises another question. There is a saturation point even for guns. When that is reached, what will gun companies do to ensure they prices do not plummet?

Hmmm...

 

[Kynoch]

Guns are a bargain!!!!

Far from overpriced in my opinion. Life saving tools of self defense, representations of liberty, and quality manufacturing of small durable mechanical parts for around $200-$800 for average pistol/rifle/shotgun specimins... For average people, the price of an average gun represents only a few days' wages. A real bargain.

Factoring in R&D, FFL paperwork, liability insurance, lawyers, marketing... few other industries are so heavily and complexly regulated.

Also consider that a gun, if treated well, will retain it's value and last several lifetimes. FEW other consumer goods will do that.

Ever buy a clothes washer, refrigerator, car, table saw, wrist watch, etc.? Once it leaves the store, the value depreciates quickly. However, you could buy a Glock or SW pistol and likely recapture most of the value a few years later if you take care of it.

Try competing as a manufacturer of a product where the used market is a tight margin from the new market... not an easy task.

You're not addressing the question...

 

[Wil Terry]

Well, I can answer that question and I believe it's not just exclusive to firearms. The answer is; Manufacturing...

I'm a Tool and Die Maker by trade, and have extensive experience in modern day CNC manufacturing techniques. When I look at things like fire arms, I honestly can't believe that Glock for example, can make a pistol, with all of it's complex and intricate parts, assemble it, test it, document it, package it, ship it, and sell it at a wholesale price to dealers and distributors, so that they too can make money with it's $550-$600 final price tag...

THIS is very interesting !! I had an engineer in the arms business tell me he KNEW that it did not cost Glock over $50 to $60 bux to make a pistol.

 

[Kynoch]

I wonder if another barrier to entering the gunmaking market is social respectability? Why doesn't (for example) Snap-On enter the gunmaking business? How about Ping Golf? Why doesn't Sears or Wal*Mart start making guns and REALLY provide some competition?

 

[rajb123]

Question: Why do V8 cars sell for $8K - $10K more than their lesser cousins having V6 and 4 banger engines when the cost of manufacturing the V8 is just a tad higher? Why do convertible cars sell for $6K more than hardtop coupes when the production costs of convertibles are not much higher?

Answer: ....because manufacturors can demand the higher prices and consumers will pay it.

 

[Kynoch]

Question: Why do V8 cars sell for $8K - $10K more than their lesser cousins having V6 and 4 banger engines when the cost of manufacturing the V8 is just a tad higher? Why do convertible cars sell for $6K more than hardtop coupes when the production costs of convertibles are not much higher?

Answer: ....because manufacturors can demand the higher prices and consumers will pay it.

You're not answering the question.

Let me put it another way. How have gunmakers managed the supply/demand equation that has allowed them to raise prices so much in the past 20 years when US producers of other other durable goods have not?

Your example would be akin to comparing a base model gun with a model that had more options. That pricing situation has always existed. The rise in gun prices has not.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Since unemployment has been over 8% and one's net worth nationally has been reduced by 40-50% in the last few years, things sure seem expensive.

 

[joecil]

I have a question in regards to trade barriers as I don't know if I believe that. Take makers like Springfield, Taurus, S&W etc with most of their guns made overseas or at least most of their parts. China, Arib Emerits, Glock, Armscor, CZ, Beretta etc are all made over seas. Ammo such as PNC, RWS as well as Russin are sold locally often for less than "American" makes such as Federal, Remington, Speer etc. I would guess more than 90% of the guns sold in the US are made in other countries but could be wrong though I doubt it.

 

[oneounceload]

ike, if anyone with spare time on their CNC machine could crank out AR-15 lowers and 1911 frames and slides, and if people could order them without regard to interstate commerce crap, the bottom would drop out of the market. The rest of the parts that aren't "firearms" are already commoditized and available in infinite variety at every price point.

Everyone started doing that just a few years ago - there are more companies out there making parts, components, assemblies, etc. for AR guns that once the )* panic subsided, there is now a glut on the market - it is now gearing up for the '12 election cycle. I have no idea what "interstate commerce crap" you are talking about - maybe you mean health insurance, freight, inventory costs, licenses, taxes, etc.?

 

[oneounceload]

Let me put it another way. How have gunmakers managed the supply/demand equation that has allowed them to raise prices so much in the past 20 years when US producers of other other durable goods have not?

They haven't and they haven't "raised" prices SO much in the last 20 years, not factoring in the increases in the cost of living

I bought a mil-surp rifle in 1983 at a gun show, paid $55, now they are $99 - after thirty years, that is nothing.

Certain models of guns , due to demand, will have higher prices - just like a free market is supposed to do - but overall, the prices are on par with other things today

 

[Kynoch]

They haven't and they haven't "raised" prices SO much in the last 20 years, not factoring in the increases in the cost of living

I bought a mil-surp rifle in 1983 at a gun show, paid $55, now they are $99 - after thirty years, that is nothing.

Certain models of guns , due to demand, will have higher prices - just like a free market is supposed to do - but overall, the prices are on par with other things today

Malarkey. The prices of most guns has risen far more than the last 20 years than other US-made durable goods.

 

[Kynoch]

I have a question in regards to trade barriers as I don't know if I believe that. Take makers like Springfield, Taurus, S&W etc with most of their guns made overseas or at least most of their parts. China, Arib Emerits, Glock, Armscor, CZ, Beretta etc are all made over seas. Ammo such as PNC, RWS as well as Russin are sold locally often for less than "American" makes such as Federal, Remington, Speer etc. I would guess more than 90% of the guns sold in the US are made in other countries but could be wrong though I doubt it.

Most of their guns (and parts) are not made overseas. That's one of the things that has limited competition in the gunmaking world since the GCA of 1968.

 

[oneounceload]

Malarkey. The prices of most guns has risen far more than the last 20 years than other US-made durable goods.

Really? Look at cars./ How about washers and dryers now that are selling for 1200 EACH but 20 years ago you buy a set for about $500? Fridge - $2300 easy today, 20 years ago, about 600 for the top model.

Remember to compare those durable goods still made here and not those that have since been outsourced to China - like every tool in Lowe's or HD

As to guns, Glocks have been fairly constant, as have guns like fine Spanish doubles - their price increase is a direct reflection of the Euro increase/dollar decrease

The only major area are black guns and small pistols where HUGE demand has made them more valuable to consumers.

If the demand for small pistols wasn't there, neither would be Keltec, Rohrbaugh, Boberg, Seecamp and all of the major players who have gone crazy introducing one CCW gun after another in the last few years

 

[atblis]

Glock's prices were high when they first came out. Now that they have competition, they don't have the luxury of raising their prices.

Most guns don't really wear out. I am curious why the market hasn't saturated yet. Most modern automatic handguns will go 50k rounds no problemo. Most people probably never break 5k through a gun in their lifetime. Why are used Glock 17s/19s $400? Glock 22s were getting close to $300 for a while there.

I have no idea what "interstate commerce crap" you are talking about

Basically all Federal regulation of firearms stems from that. It's a particularly insidious aspect of the Federal government. They've used it to get their greasy little paws on everything.

 

[rajb123]

...even with a very poor economy, gun sales have skyrocketed in recent years - particularily during the Obama years.

When demand increases, so do prices because the manufacturors can demand higher prices and buyers are willing to pay higher prices.

Personnaly, I don't think guns are expensive in today's market. Food and gas are expensive in today's market.

 

[Kynoch]

Glock's prices were high when they first came out. Now that they have competition, they don't have the luxury of raising their prices.

Most guns don't really wear out. I am curious why the market hasn't saturated yet. Most modern automatic handguns will go 50k rounds no problemo. Most people probably never break 5k through a gun in their lifetime. Why are used Glock 17s/19s $400? Glock 22s were getting close to $300 for a while there.


Basically all Federal regulation of firearms stems from that. It's a particularly insidious aspect of the Federal government. They've used it to get their greasy little paws on everything.

So why don't other makers have such competition for other guns? Many guns have risen 2-3x in price in the past 20 years.

 

[DesertFox]

I'm stuck in the days of late '80s when the expensive S&W revolvers were $319. So paying $850 for a 310NG with its hole and transfer bar seems expensive to me as well.

Nobody is holding a gun to my head forcing me to purchase one either.

Hamburgers used to be $0.05 and run $8-12 nowadays in a restaurant. Me thinks everything is expensive...

 

[Certaindeaf]

.Most guns don't really wear out. I am curious why the market hasn't saturated yet. Most modern automatic handguns will go 50k rounds no problemo. Most people probably never break 5k through a gun in their lifetime..

Because of "rotation".. it makes their ass look big or something. j/k

 

[Kynoch]

Really? Look at cars./ How about washers and dryers now that are selling for 1200 EACH but 20 years ago you buy a set for about $500? Fridge - $2300 easy today, 20 years ago, about 600 for the top model.

Remember to compare those durable goods still made here and not those that have since been outsourced to China - like every tool in Lowe's or HD

As to guns, Glocks have been fairly constant, as have guns like fine Spanish doubles - their price increase is a direct reflection of the Euro increase/dollar decrease

The only major area are black guns and small pistols where HUGE demand has made them more valuable to consumers.

If the demand for small pistols wasn't there, neither would be Keltec, Rohrbaugh, Boberg, Seecamp and all of the major players who have gone crazy introducing one CCW gun after another in the last few years

Washers/dryers/autos also vastly different then they were 20 years ago. Bad comparison. Try comparing a Ruger Redhawk to a AMERICAN MADE Snap-On ratchet or wrench in terms of pricing for both over the past 20 years.

I asked why Glocks had not jumped in price over the past 20 years like say S&W and Ruger revolvers?

 

[Kynoch]

I'm stuck in the days of late '80s when the expensive S&W revolvers were $319. So paying $850 for a 310NG with its hole and transfer bar seems expensive to me as well.

Nobody is holding a gun to my head forcing me to purchase one either.

Hamburgers used to be $0.05 and run $8-12 nowadays in a restaurant. Me thinks everything is expensive...

In 1990 a Burger King Whopper was just about the same price it is today. Try that with an S&W revolver.

 

[B!ngo]

I suspect that there are a few issues at work here (beyond inflation):
More money spent on marketing - it's a lot more competitive these days and there seems to be a greater percentage of a company's cost being allocated to visibility, advertising, et al;
I'm sure more is spent on legal fees and issues;
I'm sure more is spent on lobbying at all levels of government - worldwide. Or at least wherever it's deemed effective;
The worldwide competition for processed materials (quality steel, plastics, etc.) is on the rise. And as more exotic materials that lend themselves to the firearms sector (scandium, titanium, better steel and aluminum alloys), they have to pay the going rate;
Most importantly, I think it's based (in many cases) what the company thinks the market can bear. H&K's costs are unlikely to be so much higher than M&P's (perhaps an extreme example). But H&K has decided to focus on high-priced/high-end markets/customers/organizations. Glock must have covered their R&D costs so many times over that it their computations must be primarily on what the market will bear, and how they want to be perceived in the marketplace. They are more than M&P but less than H&K/Sig. Again, I suspect by choice.
Something worth noting is (at least IMHO) that today's products are generally BETTER than the products one or two decades ago. Sure there are lesser products on the margins, but in general (legal limitations notwithstanding and with few exceptions) there has never been a better breed of firearms for consumers than there are today.
B

 

[atblis]

I honestly think the bottom will fall out of the gun market once people realize they already have more than enough guns to last them the rest of their life (and they don't have any money to keep feeding their hording habit).

One thing I've noticed is that prices on Swedish Mausers seem to have stagnated. K31s haven't gone up as quick as I thought they would.