Why buy pistols that don't work?

[sm]

Good discussion.
It caused me to look at Ken Hallock's book. I paid particular attention to sketches of gun being fired and pages 122 for extractor, pages 43, 134 and 136 on mags.

Now for some reason in MY brain I had thought that Hallock said to remove the "pip" as he calls for setting the gun up for 'wadcutters'. He also mentions the mag lips needs adjusting a bit for these to feed better. The tone I get from his book is the gun is designed to run a certain way for combat and any deviation lends itself to the need to alter pistol to said "new task". Lo and behold - he does say to remove pip [ pg 136] and this was not in the set up for wadcutters.

Seems we want a proven reliable combat weapon designed for hardball , that always worked and want a 'jack of all trades". IIRC many folks set up guns for tasks , bulls-eye for instance but I dont' think Mr Clark expected that set up to work for carry.

Everything else I have read, heard from folks that use and build for serious use state what Tuner and Fuff cite - deviation leads to problems. Over and over again I hear of the relationship of mags, mag design, mag springs, follower slide catch, ....everything we are reading here again.

What I'm also hearing, is folks that build a 1911 for a specific task, I'm talking an agency here , build everything together as a unit. Mag, ammo everthing is part of that unit.

I'm also hearing and have seen, that folks get wind of part # such and such is used by so and so agencey, competitor...and they want it too - not thinking that the part itself does not make the unit - it is the sum of all parts that make a unit.

I have some older Wilson 8 rounders, I have seen / compared to some newer ones, they are different. I also note the wear on the newer is quicker and that wear affects the slide stop.

I'm still learning...evertime I read Hallock, Tuner, Old Fuff, Kennan, etc, ....I learn something...

 

[CZ52GUY]

Re: Shooting Star

Next time I order, I'll look for them.

Right now I use CM-8's and Brownell 7's on probably an 80/20 ratio if I'm doing IDPA style practice. If I'm just shooting some groups, I generally shoot the Brownell's.

I find them to be equivalent in reliability...I do find that with any 7-rd flat plate mag', I occasionally fail to seat it properly. The w/Pad mag's (regardless of capacity) seem to always get seated properly.

No insinuation intended. I generally try to react to the statement, not the person.

I'm off on business...won't be on the forum for a few days.

Have a good week,

CZ52'

 

[1911Tuner]

re: Hallock

Howdy sm...Good to see ya in the middle of this one.

Hallock's advice to remove the "pip" is ill-advised for any
application other than a gun that's destined to shoot "softball"
ammo...and I mean SOFT-ball. A 200-grain wadcutter at under 700 fps
requires a light recoil spring for the task...and THAT..is where lies
the fly in the ointment for magazines that have undergone a pip-ectomy.

As noted before...the pip...or dimple...helps to keep the last round
under control during the inertial effects of recoil. Thus, it stands to reason that the softer the gun recoils, the less critical it becomes. The dimple also
serves another function. It adds a tiny extra bit of height on the last round, and helps to get it up to feeding position in time to meet the oncoming slide. Not much...but every little bit helps when the magazine
spring tension is at its minimum. Again...the light recoil spring reduces the
slide's return to battery velocity...and the dimple's importance is lessened.

Enter the 8-round magazine with pip-less follower. Nobody ever survived a gun fight complaining that they had too much ammo on tap. When the
8-round Devel magazines hit the market, the serious pistoleers latched onto the concept of a flush-fit magazine that held an extra round...

Problem was, that the missing dimple wasn't compatible with the ammo and the recoil springs that were used in serious pistols. The recoil was too sharp, and the slide velocities too high on the feed stroke.

Remember that whenever one thing is changed...we usually have to
change three other things to compensate. No free lunches. Enter the
McCormick Powermag, with its higher spring rate. Things chugged along
pretty well until the spring lost 2 or 3% of its original tension...

Enter the shortened follower WITH dimple. The short follower wasn't
stable, and produced nose-dives on the top and bottom rounds. Adding
a brute-strong spring helped...but not a lot.

The short, split Devel follower had a tang added on the bottom that
the spring hooked onto...and it solved most of the stability problem...
and heavy Wolff springs made it even better...which gave rise to the Powermag. Trouble was, that the heavy springs and extra round was murder on the base welds of the magazines. Enter the removeable,
tongue in groove style base plate that we see today. It solved the
problem, but jacked the price of a magazine to almost double. No
free lunches. And there was STILL the issue of the spring that was necessarily shortened to make room for the extra round.

So...the distance between coils was increased in order to speed up the
magazine during that critical last round position...and keeping the magazine loaded to capacity put the wire right on the peg of exceeding its elastic limits...which caused the spring to lose tension more quickly.

Change one thing...get ready to change three other things...

Enter chrome silicon spring wire...which drives the price even higher...
and they do last longer...but we often find that we can't load the magazine to capacity without a struggle. The advice is to load it and let it stand
overnight...which forces the spring to take a set, but it still sometimes a struggle to top off the mag.

All this...for the sake of ONE extra round... that, in all probability won't be
needed in the unlikely event that we have to shoot to survive. Most
gunfights take place at less than 21 feet...and the biggest majority at less than 10 feet...with the winner and loser determined in under 5 seconds with fewer than 6 rounds fired from both sides. Put another way...either your problem will be solved, or you'll be neutralized or dead before the magazine is empty. The first three rounds are infinitely more critical than the last...unless you plan on Spray, Pray & Luck.

Next: Tighten up for 2-inch, 50 yard groups...(which are very nice in a match) and hope a speck of sand doesn't tie it up...or leave it loose and go with 5-inch, 50 yard groups for what will probably be a 10 or 15 foot encounter with your nightmare?

Cheers!

Tuner

 

[Old Fuff]

CZ52GUY mentioned a problem getting flush-fit magazines to latch during "tactical reloads." I experienced this problem on my carry guns and easily solved it by attaching a thin (3/16") home made bumper pad to the magazine's base. Such a pad is thick enough to insure the magazine will latch while not materally adding to the butt's overall length or bulk. It also has absolutely no effect on the magazine's performance.

 

[1911Tuner]

Problem Solved

Old Fuff said:

easily solved it by attaching a thin (3/16") home made bumper pad to the magazine's base...

I've used magazine bases that separate from the tubes...A little dab of
epoxy, smeared around does the trick. Once a scrounger, always a
scrounger, I say...

Tuner the Pack Rat

 

[Pythonman]

Has anyone had any experience with Pachmayer 1911 clip followers? I read a good review of them in a HANDGUNS '93 wherein the author claims very good reliablility with them, even installed into old beat up G.I. clips. Basically they are quite similar to the regular flat followers but the edges are all well rounded, it's made of what looks like stainless steel and there is a pronounced hump in the the top of the follower. Turns out they're still available.

Also, in that very same book is the one single best article describing the many, many positive attributes of the 1911A1 pistol I ever read. It was written by Jim Dickson and shortly after reading that article back in late '93 I traded a 6" Colt Anaconda 44mag for the first of quite a few 1911A1 styled pistols I've owned. Still don't miss the Anaconda but I do wish I'd have kept that first Norinco now!

 

[Dr.Rob]

Never had a problem with a STOCK Colt.

It's when you start "tinkering" with them that you end up re-inventing the wheel.

My 'custom' franken gun is a just a tad unreliable... still fun to shoot but I have other pistols better suited to defensive use.

If I bought a new gun that 'didn't work' I'd send it back asap. No matter what I paid for it.

 

[sm]

I made some wood base pads back many years ago. I had access to nice wood, and thought "why not?". I was not having a problem with my Colts or nothing...no seating problems, I could tell by "feel" if seated while in holster. Even back then I marked my mags, I could keep a record of any problems and replace springs or repair if dropped and stepped on.

24 hr epoxy worked very well. ( I have a degree from Epoxy Univ. ) I ended up drill and tap. I was sure surprised later to see "my idea" in...in ...rubber! Arrggh. Mine were thinner, real wood , held up and easy to refinish.

I just thought it looked nice and matched my double dia grips. I had Cherry grips and mag pads for the Blue Lt Wt Commander, and Walnut for the Stainless Steel Combat Commander.

Oh I engraved the mags, none of this hen scratching with a awl...I may have been young and poor, I had "class " tho'

Rawshide for laynards too...

My old USGI and Colt mags worked...just worked, Only thing I recall doing To a Stock gun was cleaning the factory lube and polish compound , re- lube and shoot the durn thing. Mine even fed the "flying ashtrays" , my carry load ( when I had money for them) otherwise I used USGI hardball.

 

[wildehond]

Re back to 1911 reliability

What ever!

I have '81 Series 70. Bought it second hand with 50 rounds through it two years ago. That is suppose to be the years when Colt did not make good products. Combat sights, lowered ejection port and dimpeled. Rattles a bit, but works evertime. 3" at 25m standing two handed when I concentrate.

When I got it, I could basically buy anything I wanted. Everyone asked me why that!. Every one was buying Glocks. Now I see more and more 1911's at the range.

Keep to the basics. Keeps you safe and alive.

wildehond.