Drako
Member
Standard FBI issue is the Glock 22 in .40. They used to carry High Power 9mm pistols but that has been replaced with the Glock 22.
Why didn't the FBI choose the .45 acp?
- Thread starter Ughh
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Vern Humphrey
Member
Yes, I have seen men continue to fight after being shot several times. There is, however, a quantitative difference between a handgun round and a rifle round. And a good expanding rifle bullet is more efffective than one which fragments or ruptures on impact.
Ironically, that's true. An FMJ would have penetrated deeper and been fatal sooner.
The shotgun was deployed too late in the action.
But hits in action -- especially with handguns -- are a lot harder to achieve than hits on the range. Multiple hits give a better chance that at least one will be fatal. That's why shotguns, when deployed in time, are usually decisive in a short-range fight.
And of course, opponents with multiple holes bleed out faster, even if none of the pellets are perfectly placed.
I don't disagree with a single thing you said in this post--I was just trying to temper with some rhetoric any absolute thoughts that people might have about being able to rely on rifles or even shotguns for one-shot stops. They may be on a whole other level than handguns in terms of effectiveness, but even so, the same old stubborn principles still apply, just with different numbers. And if rifles and shotguns, as powerful as they are, can benefit from a prudent selection of ammunition that is appropriate for human-sized targets, then so can handgun ammunition, which was my ultimate point (and the FBI evidently agrees). This seems obvious enough to me, but some people need to be convinced.
Vern Humphrey
Member
I think it comes back to something I've often said -- most disasters occur because people plan to have disasters. That is, they make bad choices early on that produce the disaster. And that's what happended in Miami -- they chose to take on known killers (who had rifles) with handguns. They chose to take them on with only one protective vest (which was an obsolete pattern.) They chose to put handguns on the seats of the cars, with predictable results when they stepped on the brakes.
The lesson from the Miami shootout is that bad tactics result in failure in combat.
The lesson from the Miami shootout is that bad tactics result in failure in combat.
Shawn Dodson
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I disagree. A hole through the heart disrupts it's ability to supply blood to the entire body - it may be incapable of effectively pumping any blood at all.
The brachial artery and a major lung vessel were both severely damaged by the same bullet, but the wound allowed Platt to run around for a couple of minutes afterward to murder and wound.
There were agents involved in the stakeout who were armed with MP5 SMGs. Unfortunately they arrived on scene too late.
The tactic employed by the FBI at the time was the state of the art - swarm and overwhelm. It was a proved, successful tactic in prior encounters with bad guys. In Miami, however, it was the first time the tactic was contested by bad guys who were very determined and had total disregard for their own safety and lives. The FBI quietly addressed its tactics shortcomings after Miami.
NMGonzo
Member
Cheaper.
Just as good.
More capacity per weight carried on the weapon system and spare magazines.
Just as good.
More capacity per weight carried on the weapon system and spare magazines.
And here I come with the real reason they didn't go with the .45-
They don't want their targets to flee the country before the bullet reaches the spot they were standing when the trigger was pulled.
They are sooooooooooooo slowwwwwwwwwwwww!
They don't want their targets to flee the country before the bullet reaches the spot they were standing when the trigger was pulled.
They are sooooooooooooo slowwwwwwwwwwwww!
RockyMtnTactical
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My guess, capacity, but even moreso, size of the firearm I would bet.
Their HRT teams use 1911's though.
Their HRT teams use 1911's though.
It should be obvious.
Making your equipment out to be a scapegoat works better when the ultimate solution ISN'T a caliber/platform that has been readily available for nearly a hundred years.
By going with a fairly new cartridge (10mm), the blame game works much better. A custom tailored cartridge based on your new criteria (.40 S&W), even better.
On another note, it's odd to hear that the problem with 9mm is under-penetration. It's a caliber that's notorious for over-penetration. Why not make a HP that doesn't expand quite so well?
Making your equipment out to be a scapegoat works better when the ultimate solution ISN'T a caliber/platform that has been readily available for nearly a hundred years.
By going with a fairly new cartridge (10mm), the blame game works much better. A custom tailored cartridge based on your new criteria (.40 S&W), even better.
On another note, it's odd to hear that the problem with 9mm is under-penetration. It's a caliber that's notorious for over-penetration. Why not make a HP that doesn't expand quite so well?
Yeah, whenever someone shoots a .45 at me, I just run away real quick and hang a right. Then I come back and laugh at them.
Same thing for when an 18 wheeler hits me going the wrong way on the interstate. I always say "Gee, I'm glad that wasn't a motorcycle going 125mph instead of that pathetic semi going 75"!!!
Ughh
Member
WOW there's a lot of input here. This thread may be one of the single most informative threads on the subject of 9mm vs .40 S&W vs .45 ACP! 
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Ughh
Member
Hasn't it been believed that it is better if the bullet remained in the assailant, further hindering his mobility? Or is this a old popular debate: bullet in or bullet out??
Isn't the service round for the FBI the Winchester's bonded PDX1? or something like that?? What is the specs on the FBI's duty round anyways? .40 S&W to what gr/powder/charge resulting in what fps/lb-ft energy??
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Interesting conversation and informative. As I read the posts, I took a different view on the problem at the shoot out. Having shot 9mm most of my life the concern has always been over-penitration which was my choice of caliber, I always wanted a entry and exit wound (lung shots) and knew that a single 9mm shot would not stop an assaliant, thats why my Hi-Power had 13 rounds and 2 extra mags all the time (and yes Silvertips were my perfered ammo, never a jam or FTF). Having gotten back into shooting about 6 years ago, I switched to 45 ACP and find no problems with the recoil but the weight of a full size 45 is not fun to carry around. Two years ago I started shooting IDPA matches just for the heck of it, and purchased a new 9mm just for the matches. For me it's like shooting a 22 and can out do most other shooters. Since I am getting up in age and the eyes aren't as good, I decided to try something a little larger for holes (40 S&W) So this year eventhough I would do better with a 9mm, I am sticking with the 40 S&W for the time being. A couple of observations, the rate of fire with a 9mm is much much better on second and third shoot recovery and placement. The 40 is OK on first shot placement but requires more work on followup shots.
To make a long story short, the real problem is the lack of training back in 1986 and that more enmphisise was placed on paper work (tons of it) and not on shooting skills or tactics. Very few federal agents ever have to use their firearm or even train with it, the exception is the Air Marshalls, ATF and SWAT teams.
Any caliber would have worked if the agents had IDPA training, but there was no IDPA at that time. Static target shooting does not prepare anyone for shootouts. You can be the best target shooter and fail miserably when it comes to shooting moving or multible treats at different ranges and angles. You do not have to take my word on it, get out to a IDPA match and try your hand at it, you will be supprised at how much more pratice you need and will have fun doing it.
Good luck to all
Jim
To make a long story short, the real problem is the lack of training back in 1986 and that more enmphisise was placed on paper work (tons of it) and not on shooting skills or tactics. Very few federal agents ever have to use their firearm or even train with it, the exception is the Air Marshalls, ATF and SWAT teams.
Any caliber would have worked if the agents had IDPA training, but there was no IDPA at that time. Static target shooting does not prepare anyone for shootouts. You can be the best target shooter and fail miserably when it comes to shooting moving or multible treats at different ranges and angles. You do not have to take my word on it, get out to a IDPA match and try your hand at it, you will be supprised at how much more pratice you need and will have fun doing it.
Good luck to all
Jim
huntsman
Member
Yeah but the question is WHICH DO YOU BELIEVE.WOW there's a lot of input here. This thread may be one of the single most informative threads on the subject of 9mm vs .40 S&W vs .45 ACP!
mothermopar
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The statement about the 45 being sooooooo slow... That poster should win some kind of award for general stupidity and firearm ignorance, plus an all expense paid trip to the local medical clinic for chemical sterilization. People that dumb shouldn't breed.
That 'slow' bullet has killed more people (good and bad) than anyother handgun round in existence.
Last comment: how much u wanna bet the poster is a mall ninja and/or a glock owner?!
Nothing against glocks or their owners in general (I've owned glocks) but it just seems that ignorant comments like that come from those folks who only own 'modern' style weapons and calibers.
Rant over. Sorry.
That 'slow' bullet has killed more people (good and bad) than anyother handgun round in existence.
Last comment: how much u wanna bet the poster is a mall ninja and/or a glock owner?!
Nothing against glocks or their owners in general (I've owned glocks) but it just seems that ignorant comments like that come from those folks who only own 'modern' style weapons and calibers.
Rant over. Sorry.
Tower, this is .45 joke flight ten eight niner dash one five oh, currently reporting clear skies and general calm air @ 35,000ft over mothermopar's head. how copy?
PS. I have black friends.
Relax brah, it was a joke from the moment someone else concocted the thought of the .45 as so slow it would hit earth before flying far enough to impact a target twenty yards away.
The thread had everything that made sense already, and everything correct ballistically, so I wanted to throw some levity into it. I thought it was pretty funny when I wrote it, and I rarely edit posts by removing material, even when I find out I am very wrong.
I do own a pair of Glocks, the 23 and 27, started with the 27 as a Glock hater but realized that it was the smallest, easiest to shoot overall package I could get in .40 when I received my carry permit, and then I started to appreciate the platform for what it was after buying it.
I think the subcompact Glocks are the best models they ever made and to this day I think the Glock subcompacts are the best of the very small service autos out there. My other guns include maufacturers such as CZ (the manufacturer most represented with me), FN, CMMG, Mossberg, S&W (#2), H&K, and Taurus.
I don't think I'm a mall ninja, though I could be without being aware of it I guess.
Demitrios
Member
How did this turn into a "My caliber is better than your caliber, and here's why" discussion? First thing's first, the 1911 was adopted and used by the military in the year 1911. The FBI was created in 1908, before the .45 ACP hit its popularity with the military. So the Miami shootout in 1986 had nothing at all to do with why or why-not the FBI decided not to use the .45. Prior to the shootout in Miami there were still many agents carrying the S&W Model 13, which is a .357 revolver but they were limited to shooting .38 Specials out of it. Whenever it was they switched to 9mm one could assume (and I can't stress that enough) it was probably done because the 9mm is a NATO round. After the Miami shooting. . . well I think every other post here has covered that and then some.
Mad Magyar
Member
Damn, I just spilled my coffee on the keyboard....
I would like to know where you got that information... as far as I know, most of the world - besides United States - carries 9mm NATO. So to arrive at your statement means one of 2 things:
The United States has killed more people than the rest of the world combined.
OR
Your statement was a bit of an exaggeration.
While the Silvertip did in fact create a fatal wound, had it penetrated a few inches deeper, it would have created a second fatal wound. Two fatal wounds are better than one. From what I have read, the BG charged and killed the agents after his fatal wound was inflicted. I doubt he could have done all that with a fatal wound and a pierced heart.
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