Why do people chintz out on scopes?

[mavracer]

the SMART thing to do would've been to stop clowning around, get one Meopta and one Zeiss to start with, and be done with it.

One issue with that theory the glass in your Meopta you'd have bought in 1980 probably isn't as good as what's in a clamshell at Wal-Mart today.
I've got a Bausch and Lomb Balfor 4x that dad probably bought in the mid 70s at the time it was a upper mid priced scope and while it's still very serviceable as far as holding zero light gathering is meh it's now on a old Marlin 22 mag.

 

[magyars4]

25 years or so ago I owned a factory stock Savage model 24 30-30/12 put a Leupold scope on it.....the rifle barrel was amazingly accurate.

 

[cdb1]

Something else I'm seeing in this thread that needs addressed. Just saying $300 as a quality point can be misleading a $300 1-4x hunting scope is going to be a whole different animal than a $300 6-24x precision rifle scope.

This.

 

[hq]

One issue with that theory the glass in your Meopta you'd have bought in 1980 probably isn't as good as what's in a clamshell at Wal-Mart today.
I've got a Bausch and Lomb Balfor 4x that dad probably bought in the mid 70s at the time it was a upper mid priced scope and while it's still very serviceable as far as holding zero light gathering is meh it's now on a old Marlin 22 mag.

One thing that has improved by leaps and bounds over the years is antireflective lens coatings. Quality glass is still excellent, I have a bunch of vintage scopes, an M.S.W. Wetzlar from mid-60's that still compares favorably against most $300-400 scopes of today and an early 90's Zeiss Diavari 3-12x56T* that quite literally is current Meopta Meostar R1 3-12x56RD (MSRP $1099), as hand-me-down earlier lens coating technology from Zeiss to their long-time subcontractor.

Optics aren't computers and electronics, development is relatively slow. It'll take the better part of a lifetime before a high-end scope can be matched by anything sold for chump change in chain stores, if not much longer.

 

[redneck2]

One thing that has improved by leaps and bounds over the years is antireflective lens coatings.

Few years back, I was sitting with my buddy in a hayfield looking to the west toward the setting sun. My hunting buddy had the “cheaper scopes are just as good” attitude that we’ve seen displayed here over and over. He had a Leupold made Redfield. Good enough.

I pulled up my rifle which had a VX-R and commented that there were no deer coming out of the fence row. He asks “how can you tell? It’s all washed out”.

So, I hand him my rifle. Crystal clear. I look through his. Sun glare so bad you couldn’t see anything. Had he not been with me, he would never have known differently.

Later we were sighting in his AR. It had one of the Nikon .223 scopes. He was all kinds proud of it, until he shot my .204 with a VX-3. He switched back and forth a few times. Difference was quite substantial.

Afterwards he commented about how much that experience had cost him dollars wise. All his cheap scopes ended up going away

 

[DustyGmt]

Very true, there's no such thing as perfection. Even though Zeiss HT-scopes with Schott glass are a bit of specialty products for extreme low light when light transmission is the highest priority and your description of this person sounded a lot like he hunts (exclusively?) in the US, I'd love to pick his brain and hear what kind of issues he has come across. Victory HT 3-12x56 just happens to be the current #2 on my deer rifle scope upgrade wish list, right behind Schmidt & Bender Polar T96.


A Bolts are quality rifles. In your price range I'd take a good look at Meopta Meopro / Optika 6 series for maximum value and if you're not in a hurry, a keep an eye out for sales and clearances for the best deal. Leupold VX-Freedom and VX-3 series, among others, are solid alternatives too. It depends a lot on what type of scope you want and what you're going to do with it.

Just to clarify, I was in no way saying anything negative about Zeiss quality, I know they are top of the pyramid and I'm sure whatever the issue was, it probably isnt common. But I can identify with his thinking, spend that kind of money and somehow strike out twice, you're probably gonna move on. Especially if your issue isnt resolved. I can ask him about it next time I'm on a job with him.... ETA: This guy hunts all over Canada, Alaska and all over the US

 

[hq]

But I can identify with his thinking, spend that kind of money and somehow strike out twice, you're probably gonna move on. Especially if your issue isnt resolved. I can ask him about it next time I'm on a job with him....

So I understood. Like I said, I'd just like to hear what it's all about. Even if it's a customer service issue; if they day comes when I have to contact them it's good to know what to expect. Or something else. Praising anything is easy but objective negative feedback is IMO far more valuable.

 

[DustyGmt]

So I understood. Like I said, I'd just like to hear what it's all about. Even if it's a customer service issue; if they day comes when I have to contact them it's good to know what to expect. Or something else. Praising anything is easy but objective negative feedback is IMO far more valuable.

Yeah, I'd want to talk to him about it too, for the 20-30 people or so that can actually afford to own these scopes, I'd want to hear from the group about any issues Lol.

I lucked into my Zeiss because an executive at Mastercard died and his son apparently sold his massive collection of hunting/shooting gear dirt cheap, like 10K for over 50k worth of stuff. Anyway, long story short, one of the guys who ended up with some of the stuff traded the Zeiss to me for a gun.

 

[LoonWulf]

One thing that has improved by leaps and bounds over the years is antireflective lens coatings. Quality glass is still excellent, I have a bunch of vintage scopes, an M.S.W. Wetzlar from mid-60's that still compares favorably against most $300-400 scopes of today and an early 90's Zeiss Diavari 3-12x56T* that quite literally is current Meopta Meostar R1 3-12x56RD (MSRP $1099), as hand-me-down earlier lens coating technology from Zeiss to their long-time subcontractor.

Optics aren't computers and electronics, development is relatively slow. Itll take the better part of a lifetime before a high-end scope can be matched by anything sold for chump change in chain stores, if not much longer.

I think it has some to do with competition also. While I quit looking as price climbs past 11-1200, so i dont KNOW whats out there, more and more optics companies are popping up now, and id expect them to eventually start taking pokes at premium hunting optics as well as the target stuff they are already doing.
All said tho, MY experience with high end stuff is that it generally dosent become obsolete at as rapid a pace as middling or below....again I THINK because of more competition in the lower price market.

The first real gaming computer I built cost me something like 4-5k, and could still run most games at full value 10years later. Duplicating it then would have cost me about a grand and a half or so.
The next one I built cost 2k and I just fried it....again almost 10 years later.
I honestly think the cost gap reductions been sped up by all the companies that got into the performance pc components game.

I have a very limited scope of reference, so I could be well off base.

So I understood. Like I said, I'd just like to hear what it's all about. Even if it's a customer service issue; if they day comes when I have to contact them it's good to know what to expect. Or something else. Praising anything is easy but objective negative feedback is IMO far more valuable.

Funny that should come up.

Took all my scopes out at nightfall yesterday since i wanted to compare the new sightron S-tac i just got.
I noticed my Zeiss isnt focusing as well as id like outside of about 300yds. I hadnt noticed that before, and Ive shot that gun out to over a thousand yds. SF knob felt crunchy at the ends of travel also.
Contacted CS and got a reply by this morning. Be sending it in today probably.
Could just be my eyeballs and fine Lava dust in between the turret and scope body, but looks like ill get to see Zeiss CS in action.

 

[hq]

Advances in NC technology has improved the quality of components quite a bit, but grinding, shaping and polishing lenses from raw blanks is still a very slow, tedious and expensive (diamond abrasive) process. The tighter the tolerances, the exponentially more expensive manufacturing is.

Glass coatings have improved dramatically over the years but the better ones are often proprietary and even IPR litigation is used to maintain a competitive advantage. When patents are about to expire the technology is transferred to slightly lower price point products with a simple trade secret status.

I'm not exactly holding my breath for dramatically better glass to show up in lower price points anytime soon, but the industry is evolving all the time. Slowly and steadily. I'd be thrilled to see a revolution in manufacturing and coating technologies that would change everything overnight, though.

 

[JFrank]

My wife is a CPA. She doesn't fall for the Jedi mind tricks. I just have to take my lumps

Try slowly passing your right hand across her line of vision then speak softly- THESE ARE NOT THE RECIEPTS YOU ARE LOOKING FOR.....

 

[bassjam]

Tying the cost of a scope to the cost of a rifle seems silly in these days when you can pick up a $250 Compass or Axis that'll perform the same as a rifle 4x it's cost for one deer hunt a year. When my hunt consists of me walking 40 yards into the woods from my house I don't need something that'll stand up to a couple days of baggage handlers and a week's worth of hiking in mountain terrain and climate.

Most of my scoped rifles don't go out in the field either. When I'm punching paper for my own pleasure in broad daylight, a lower end Vortex is easily good enough.

 

[Walkalong]

My Leupold Var X III from 35 years ago was a great scope, paid $350ish for it. Today the same money buys a better comparable product. Times are good for folks spending $250 to $400 on plain jane hunting scopes.

I have retired my Vari X III, but it is still serviceable if the need arises. Chances are it will be given to someone in need of a decent scope.

 

[jbmillard]

This whole discussion reminds of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". There are two mindsets here, neither understand the other and neither are likely to change.

 

[BigBL87]

This whole discussion reminds of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". There are two mindsets here, neither understand the other and neither are likely to change.

Well put. Although who knows, maybe I'll see the light sell all but one of my rifles to buy the proper $1500 scope for the one rifle I have left.

 

[jbmillard]

Well put. Although who knows, maybe I'll see the light sell all but one of my rifles to buy the proper $1500 scope for the one rifle I have left.

I find these kinds of discussions interesting. I'm of the opinion that there at least two ways of thinking about this (as evidenced by this thread) and that it takes a relatively important event to change one's mind. For instance, a failed scope during a big hunt, or winning the lottery (money no longer matters). [Think liberal and conservative - it usually takes a big event to change - like 9/11.]

In my experience, saying "I can't afford it" is usually wrong, it's closer to say "that's not a priority for me". I know people that buy cheap scopes that own expensive cars. I understand there are very poor people out there that cannot afford the scopes. I get that. There are far more people out there that choose to put their money elsewhere.

When I see people at the range with a >$40K truck and a $200 scope, I just have to remind myself that everyone's priorities are different and that's OK. It's their money and none of my business what they do with it. It doesn't mean that I understand it.

 

[vintovka]

Russian and chinese scopes have really affected the market. Used to carry Zeiss in shop but quit after sales went to near zero due to price. The last Zeiss scope we had was the most handled and viewed one in the case. Everyone wanted to see and compare then bought a cheaper one. All i have left now is my prized Zeiss hat from the rep at the Shot Show.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I've always looked for that perfect balance of value and quality with scopes. I've used cheap scopes when I was younger like Simmons, BSA, and Tasco. They were usually pretty awful, but I never actually had one fail.

These days I'm doing a little better and buying nicer scopes is an option.
My 2 hunting rifles have entry level Leupolds on them (one Rifleman and one VX1). They are leaps and bounds better than the cheap stuff, and they do great for hunting deer from a box blind in Arkansas.

I don't understand the logic of the price of your rifle determining the price of your scope. What in the world does that have to do with each other? Seems like spending money just for the sake of spending money.
Buy the right tool for the job.

 

[jbmillard]

I've always looked for that perfect balance of value and quality with scopes. I've used cheap scopes when I was younger like Simmons, BSA, and Tasco. They were usually pretty awful, but I never actually had one fail.

When I was much younger, I bought a 3-9 Tasco for $10-15 at a pawn shop. It worked well enough, it held zero, the reticle didn't break, but the glass was truly awful compared to higher end stuff which I didn't want to pay for at the time. To me there is a difference in the low and high end stuff. How much difference there is really depends on the user and what they are willing to put up with.

I had a cop (SWAT team guy I think) take a look through my Nightforce ATACR. I don't remember what scope he had. He could certainly tell the difference. I have had people show me their new scopes at the range and the distortion was unbelievable at higher powers. They didn't see it or didn't understand what they were seeing.

 

[JFrank]

My Leupold Var X III from 35 years ago was a great scope, paid $350ish for it. Today the same money buys a better comparable product. Times are good for folks spending $250 to $400 on plain jane hunting scopes.

I have retired my Vari X III, but it is still serviceable if the need arises. Chances are it will be given to someone in need of a decent scope.

I looked through a Leupold awhile back that was VERY nice at around $1300.00 although I can't recall the model it had a red dot also. Any idea what model that might be ?

 

[BreechFace]

I looked through a Leupold awhile back that was VERY nice at around $1300.00 although I can't recall the model it had a red dot also. Any idea what model that might be ?

In that price range with a gold ring it was probably a VX5hd or VX6hd. Your price would be a bit high on the VX5hd and a bit low on the VX6hd from what I see prices locally.

 

[JFrank]

Maybe it was closer to 15 hundred, nice scope for sure...

 

[Hookeye]

Wanted to go get the Leupold 4-12X today but my back is on fire.
Chintzing out at $350.

 

[hq]

There are two mindsets here, neither understand the other and neither are likely to change.

Having migrated from "nah, it'll do just fine, good enough for what I use it for" to fully appreciating quality glass I think I have an idea what it's all about. I used to think people spending even a grand on scope are nuts, nowadays I gladly spend even double that without blinking an eye. Only because I know exactly what the extra cost buys and it's really quite miserable to do without when you know the difference.

It's not necessarily even a finances issue. I bought most of my crappy and mediocre scopes after I sold my company in the 90's and could've easily bought a bunch of Swarovskis instead. I thought I'd save money but ended up spending more in the long run when I started replacing them with proper scopes.

 

[Hookeye]

Usable is one thing.
Being happy with it might be another.
Then there's the actual joy of ownership/usage.

For some guns/optics are just basic tools.
Know a millionaire that shoots cheap stuff, and is happy to do so.

870 Express w a simmons scope is good enough for deer in his back yard.
Hop on a plane to hike the Aztec ruins? No prob.

Not everybody looks at things the same.

Did I enjoy looking at the firgured stock on my #1 while waiting for the deer to show up.
Yes I did.
Did I pay extra to haver that little pleasure? Actually no, I paid reg #1 price for that rifle, even then, on the low side.
But the rifle as it is, is not a tack driver.

Consequently, a higher end scope aint going on it.
If it eventually gets tweaked to shooting VERY good, then it will get an upgrade.

Popping deer in my back yard (figuratively speaking) the old Vari X II on it is good enough.
Actually, it's pretty decent.

Legal shooting here is half hr before sunrise, half hr after sunset.
An old M8 4x worked well beyond those limits.

I do think those that hunt at night may require premium optics. That aint me.
If I hunt at night I'll get a laser flood and put it on top of a scope.