Why do we need automatic guns?

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Need doesn't have anything to do with it.

Correct. Need is not synonomous with want. I need food but I want a stainless fridge to put in in.

There should be no regulations on small arms at all in this country.

Don't agree there. Are you saying anyone should be able to stroll down and buy whatever gun they want ? So...some ex-con, out after 15yrs in lockup for murder should be able to walk into Gus' Guns and by a MP5? That, I don't buy.
 
It has become popular in some circles to malign full auto as unnecessary or perhaps a crutch for poor shooting. This idea indicates a basic misunderstanding of the use of the fully automatic weapon in a military environment.

If you want to get technical about it, the military doesn't need Full-auto either.

Absolutely untrue. See jsalcedo's post concerning his father's commendation.

Other advantages include increased hit probability" Wouldn't hit probability be higher with aimed shots rather than the seemingly non-aimed three round burst shots?

What indicated to you that burst fire shouldn't be aimed? Aimed three round bursts beat aimed single shots.

Ask anyone who's been on a military range whether they'd like to take a poke at the 400 meter target on semi or full.

What exactly is you background re: full auto?

three round burst beats three aimed shots" To me this is a little contradictory.

Hmmm...for those who haven't fired any full auto weapons, a three round burst into a chest is "aimed fire..." The only contradictory factor is the time issue, which is important. There is a physiological impact regarding the timing of hits. See my earlier post regarding nervous system shutdown. This is the primary reason for the effectiveness of the shotgun, i.e. multiple hits in a very limited time frame.

Lastly,
Lastly, anyone using any fullauto against any badguy, will likely get A LOT more legal obsticals (sp?) thrown at him than if they used something else.

The issue is whether or not full auto is more effective. Please read all posts before commenting.
 
Pax...I was purposely avoiding the full auto's utility as a weapon.

Yohan has expressed in the past that he's not comfortable with the idea of a firearm as a weapon.

That being out of the way, one of the best "stoppers" in a gunfight is the autonomous shutdown of the central nervous system. The best way to acheive this is by multiple near-simultaneous thoracic cavity trauma.

A three round burst zippered into someone's chest beats the heck out of three aimed shots...time wise and effectiveness-wise.

Other advantages include increased hit probability, effectiveness against multiple attackers, and the obvious psychological advantage.
I've said that I see guns as a valid hobby, not as just a weapon used to kill people. I can goto a gun range just to have fun shooting, not to practice drills and get myself mentally prepared to kill someone. That's what I meant.

Ok, so a three burst "zippered" into someone's chest may beat the heck out of three aimed shots, but wouldn't shot guns be more dramatic and effetive? However, I did understand your point about the three bursts being more effective for killing intruders.

The issue is whether or not full auto is more effective. Please read all posts before commenting.
Ok, Mr.Thread Jacker ;) This post was actually about valid reasons for owning full automatic weapons, and you answered it by informing all of us that an automatic weapon would be the best way to kill people. Thanks.

Now, let's put out of the flames and get back to normal civilized discussion.

ext.gif


:D :cool:
 
Don't agree there. Are you saying anyone should be able to stroll down and buy whatever gun they want ? So...some ex-con, out after 15yrs in lockup for murder should be able to walk into Gus' Guns and by a MP5? That, I don't buy.
I dont agree with this, I think anyone should be able to buy what they want. I thought when you did your time, "you did your time". I think felons who serve their time should be allowed to vote and own guns again. If they are deemed to be able to be released, whats it matter if they buy their gun legally or not? They sure as hell get them anyway.
As for the rest of the last couple of posts, I think Thumper covered it pretty well. There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding as to how full auto weapons are used and what they can and can not do. I guess a lot of this is from the movies and the media. In untrained hands they may appear to be uncontrolable and ammo wasters. In the right hands, they can be very effecient weapons that will shut a threat down "right now" with a quick burst. You cant get that in semi, even with fast aimed shots. In full auto, its one quick aimed burst. The other misconception is, just because its full auto you have to shoot it that way. Even with guns that are full auto only, you do have trigger control that will allow single shots(all but a few) with practice. There is a time and place for everything, its knowing when to use it that makes the difference.
 
Don't agree there. Are you saying anyone should be able to stroll down and buy whatever gun they want ? So...some ex-con, out after 15yrs in lockup for murder should be able to walk into Gus' Guns and by a MP5? That, I don't buy.
You know what? Let's keep NICS. But if you are a law-abiding citizen (pass NICS), you should be able to walk out with all the MP5's and RPG-7's you can pay for.
 
Oh...I understood that "why do we need" had been altered in the course of the thread to "why are they more effective."

My bad.

If it's still "why do we need," perhaps a re-reading of the Federalist Papers is in order. Madison was plain regarding the purpose of the Second.
 
Things you miss while typing. :)

This post was actually about valid reasons for owning full automatic weapons, and you answered it by informing all of us that an automatic weapon would be the best way to kill people. Thanks.
Yohan, anything discussed on this board will kill someone if misused or used properly. Doesnt matter how fast it runs. Full auto guns are fun and they are serious, depends on what you want out of it, just like anything else. To say they are "bad" is to say all guns are bad. The only real weapon on here that is truly dangerous is whats doing the typing, everthing else is minor in comparasion.
 
Well, let's think about this. Like, the corvette and VW comparison. Why do people pay so much more for a Corvette? Because first of all, it's a better car, secondly, it's a Corvette (need I say more?). Now, going back to automatic weapons- we have established that first of all, there is the fun factor. Secondly, it seems that some people feel that the 2nd amendment gives them the right to own an automatic weapon, and I feel that this is all subject to individual interpretation. So, why exactly is the government trying to regulate automatic guns? We have to forfeit a few rights for the greater good, such is evident in the Patriot Act. What would happen if everyone suddenly had access to full automatic weapons? I'm assuming that although some of the High Roaders have had NDs and ADs before, we are mostly aware of the gun safety- However, what about the people who fail to observe the gun safety rules? We can't assume responsibility for actions that other people take, therefore, I feel that certain limitations imposed by the government is indeed for a greater good. I have no doubts that if every single member (well ok- majority) of the High Roaders were to be given access to automatic weapons, the government would see no increase in crimes. However, what about the small minority of people who will cause more problems?Wouldn't the availability of automatic weapons to the general public enable certain people to gain access to weapons which could be more effective in taking people out by "zippering" them with three bursts? How many of the people who have shot up buildings gained access to guns through legal means? Are we willing to take the responsibility for those people? Perhaps I've been grossly mislead by ultra liberal writers, or perhaps I'm just pulling the D card (d for dumb). What I am interested in however, is intelligent responses aimed at giving me an insight into this matter. Consider it a practice in self control. Tell me reasons why I'm wrong. I guess it'd be ok if you get extremely POed and feel the need to use profanity or even call me some names, but if you do need to do so, do it through PM, for the sake of THR. Looking forward to some good discussion.

-Yohan
 
Secondly, it seems that some people feel that the 2nd amendment gives them the right to own an automatic weapon, and I feel that this is all subject to individual interpretation.

How exactly? Why do you think the Second was included? In your "individual interpretation," what do you think was it's purpose? Hint: The Founders were very explicit about this.

I'll let others handle your "personal security before liberty" comments.
 
We have to forfeit a few rights for the greater good, such is evident in the Patriot Act.
Whats this WE crap!

What would happen if everyone suddenly had access to full automatic weapons?
Nothing more than is happening right now.

We can't assume responsibility for actions that other people take, therefore, I feel that certain limitations imposed by the government is indeed for a greater good.
Ok, thats it, I cant take it anymore! :banghead: :what: :cuss: :barf:
We need a gun to head and blowing your brains out smiley!

Yohan, you just go on about your merry way and leave us machine gun owning, dont want to hurt nobody, just want to be left unmolested to have some fun, hillbillys alone, OK? If you dont want to have one, then dont. Dont start whining about who might do what and how this or that might could happen cause it ustacould when it never did before cept in a wild dream you had before you were born! Now dont misconstrue this as leagal or medical advice from me as an internet lawyer or shrink like what happened to me just now on another thread, cause it aint! But its about to get Navy chief cuss word nasty in a short here if you dont get off it!:scrutiny:
 
Don't get too mad at him...he's still young. At least he's asking.

Yohan...if you haven't yet, please read U.S. v. Miller

http://www.tcsn.net/doncicci/histdoc/millercomplete.txt

It is a 1939 Supreme Court decision, the gist of which is that the citizens have a right to any small arms used by the military.

Our founders went further, stating that it is your duty as a citizen to remain armed against a standing Army.

BTW:

"We have to forfeit a few rights for the greater good, such is evident in the Patriot Act."-Yohan

versus

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Ben Franklin

'Ol Ben had your number, didn't he, bud?

Ben's are words for a citizen to live by, Podna...if you feel otherwise, you're already a Subject.
 
Are you saying anyone should be able to stroll down and buy whatever gun they want ? So...some ex-con, out after 15yrs in lockup for murder should be able to walk into Gus' Guns and by a MP5? That, I don't buy.

Well, now we get into more of my grand plan.
In the country I envision, there would not be such a person.
He would have either been hanged, shot, etc., or he would have been killed by armed citizens.
There would also be no sex offenders. They would be killed by dousing them with gasoline and torching them.

The only people who should be in prison are people who can be rehabilitated. A shoplifter can be rehabilitated. A burglar can also be rehabilitated. A murderer or rapist can't be, and doesn't deserve the chance to be.
I say execute them and use my tax money to buy everyone ammo for their AK's instead of feeding, housing, and caring for people like that for 50 years.
Does that make me a Barbarian?

As for the military, militaries have been armed since long before the advent of the full-automatic. The best use of FA fire that I ever saw was with belt-fed MG's.
On second thought, they do need FA's. That way, guys like me get to shoot M2-HB's at taxpayer expense. :D
I personally feel that our forces would be better armed with something like a scaled up semi-auto AR-18 that fires a round of about 250 Savage persuasion.
Bursts are all well and good, but I know that I can put three shots into a target on with an M-16 on semi just as well as I can on burst. I have done it.
But they should keep the M-240B. They just rock.

While we are at it, how come police can be trusted with bayonet lugs and we can't?
Why does a cop need a bayonet lug?
 
Ok, thats it, I cant take it anymore!
We need a gun to head and blowing your brains out smiley!
I'm sorry, if I had known that posting my humble thoughts on a web-site would make you so mad, I wouldn't have done so. Or, could it be that you're just over reacting? I think you're over reacting, and for no reason at all.

Dont start whining about who might do what and how this or that might could happen cause it ustacould when it never did before cept in a wild dream you had before you were born!
Was I dreaming about the Columbine Massacre? (But my guess is, if all the students had automatic weapons, it never would have happened, right?) Was I dreaming about recent shootings I see on the news?

But its about to get Navy chief cuss word nasty in a short here if you dont get off it!
So, instead of trying to explain your reasons and trying to get me to understand, all you're doing is expressing your frustration and anger towards me, without any explanation at all. What you've said can be equivalent to "AHHHHHH! AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHH!!! ARRRRGGGGGGHhh" Plenty of anger evident, no logic or reason behind it. The least you could do is explain why you think the Patriot Act is unjust, and why you think the government ought you let you have all the machine guns in the world you want.
Yohan, you just go on about your merry way and leave us machine gun owning, dont want to hurt nobody, just want to be left unmolested to have some fun, hillbillys alone, OK?
In untrained hands they may appear to be uncontrolable and ammo wasters. In the right hands, they can be very effecient weapons that will shut a threat down "right now" with a quick burst.
We need a gun to head and blowing your brains out smiley!
Don't want to hurt nobody, eh? :eek: :p Here's a simple solution, if you see my name, just don't click on the thread and learn to relax. :neener:
 
Was I dreaming about the Columbine Massacre? (But my guess is, if all the students had automatic weapons, it never would have happened, right?) Was I dreaming about recent shootings I see on the news?

If the Columbine librarian had a decent automatic rifle and knew how to use it, it would have been less tragic.

But besides, full-auto weapons have been used in school shootings. In fact, firebombs, submachineguns, and explosives have been used - so much for the law!

Oh by the way - Chicatillo killed 52 people with a kitchen knife. What if his first victim carried an MP-5SD with three spare clips and a laser sight?
 
. The least you could do is explain why you think the Patriot Act is unjust, ...
Yohan,

Check out http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21234

This wasn't an abuse of the Patriot Act. This was a perfectly legal use of the despicable thing.

This is the sort of activity the Patriot Act was written to promote. That is why I think the Patriot Act is unjust and flat-out wrong.

pax

Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! -- Patrick Henry
 
Was I dreaming about the Columbine Massacre? (But my guess is, if all the students had automatic weapons, it never would have happened, right?) Was I dreaming about recent shootings I see on the news?
Was I dreaming about Julio Gonzalez and his happy trip to Happy Land with a gallon of gasoline?
Was I dreaming about the assorted stabbings, hit and runs, stranglings, etc, etc, etc, that I hear about in the news?

The issue isn't the tool used in the crime, it is the crime. As someone else pointed out, you're just as dead if Joe Killer burns you in your bed or blasts you with a belt from an M60.
The least you could do is explain [...] why you think the government ought you let you have all the machine guns in the world you want.
If I come up to you and tell you that you can't have something (a certain kind of car, let's say), is it up to you to explain to me why you should be allowed to have it?
 
For the same reason I "need" steak and lobster when I could live on bread and water.

For the same reason I "need" a V8 engine when I could be transported by a 500cc 2-stroke.

For the same reaon I "need" to own a 4-bedroom house when I could get by with a studio apartment.

For teh same reason I "need" vacations and weekends when I could work 7-days a week, year round.

NEED has nothing to do with it. It is about freedom, fun, personal responsability and quality of life. The "need" to own automatic weapons would be the novelty, the history, fascinatino with their design and a desire to experience shooting them from time to time.:D
 
I didn't say we don't want them. I didn't say we don't deserve to have them. I didn't say we don't have a right to have them. I simply answered the question asked, in my opinion.

Too bad that I can't go buy a full auto right now, do I as a civilian need it? No.

There's no argument here. You all assume way too dang much when reading a simple post. Geeze!
 
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People lived for centuries without electricity.. No internet, no In N' Out Double Doubles, nothing..

The argument for full autos is that we live in a "want" based society, not a need based one.

When years ago, the PRK wanted to pass a "limit" on how many cars you can own... because the PRK felt nobody should "need" to own more than 10... The car collectors ripped them a new hinny.. (Jay Leno being a fairly vocal one I seem to recall)

Probably can't think of a reason I "need" much of anything...

As my Econ 101 teacher said; there are no needs, only wants... You don't need air, you want it because you want to live...
 
Too bad that I can't go buy a full auto right now

:confused:

Educate yourself on topics before throwing out hogwash. Oklahoma is NFA legal. If you're not a felon or underage, of course you can.

, do I as a civilian need it? No.

Well, I reckon I'll take the U.S. Supreme Court's opinion over yours...thanks anyway.

Yohan, did you read any of the recommended material? BTW, the Columbine kiddies used semi-auto weapons.
 
This one was always one of my father's favorite answers to the very same question: "Need for a fully automatic weapon?"

"To defend my nation as a member of the militia".
"Like the Swiss and the Israelis or our founding fathers Sons of Liberty".

But he comes from another time and another country (mid 20th century USA)

When I asked him about the Sons of Liberty(?) he said something about being brave enough to resist the current regime against common current political sense if your cause is just.

I need one simply because I'm not allowed to have one (free from registering myself with some approval committee).

But I'll never get one and can rationalize it to myself all day with no real problem. Too many toys dull the senses, right?

Someone define "too many".

Adios
 
Thumper, where's the Hogwash?

WASHINGTON, June 10, 2002 (UPI) -- The Supreme Court passed up a chance Monday to rule on the Bush administration's assertion that the Second Amendment gives individuals the right to bear firearms.


The justices refused to review two cases in which the Justice Department filed briefs asserting that right, in a departure from past administrations.
The Second Amendment to the Constitution says, "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
For much of the 20th century, the amendment's language has sparked a political debate as to what the words mean. Advocates of gun safety laws say the amendment applies to state militias, not to individuals. Gun freedom proponents, such as the National Rifle Association, say the amendment's language clearly applies to individuals who would make up a state militia.
The courts have mostly adopted the view that the amendment is talking about militia, not individuals, though the Supreme Court, while upholding federal gun laws, has never ruled on the issue.
Until last month, the Justice Department had consistently interpreted the Second Amendment to apply to state militias, not to individuals. However, earlier this year, Attorney General John Ashcroft wrote to the NRA saying he believed the amendment gave individuals the right to bear firearms.
U.S. Solicitor General Theodore Olson echoed Ashcroft's stance in the two government briefs he submitted to the Supreme Court in May, though he urged the court not to intervene in the cases of two men who claimed their Second Amendment rights were being violated through the enforcement of guns laws.
One of the men, Timothy Joe Emerson, was indicted by a federal grand jury in San Angelo, Texas, for possessing a firearm -- a Beretta pistol -- while under a domestic violence restraining order, a violation of federal law.
A federal judge dismissed the indictment, ruling that the federal law was a violation of the Second Amendment, but a federal appeals court subsequently reversed the judge. When the appeals court sent the case back down for a new hearing, Emerson asked the Supreme Court in a pauper petition to intervene.
Olson told the Supreme Court that the appeals court was right when it ruled "that the individual right to bear arms protected by the Second Amendment is subject to 'limited, narrowly tailored specific exceptions or restrictions for particular cases that are reasonable and not inconsistent with the right of Americans generally to keep and bear their private arms as historically understood in this country."
Olson urged the Supreme Court not to review Emerson's case, even while the Justice Department took its new position on the Second Amendment.
In the second case, John Lee Haney showed up at a police station in western Oklahoma and told an officer that he owned semiautomatic and fully automatic firearms. Haney also told the officer that the weapons were not licensed and the federal government did not have the authority to make him get a license.
Officers later found two fully automatic weapons in Haney's car and house, along with literature describing how to turn a semiautomatic firearm into a fully automatic weapon.
A jury found Haney guilty of possessing two machineguns in violation of federal law and he was sentence to 33 months in prison.
An appeals court upheld the judge, ruling that there was no personal right contained in the Second Amendment. A federal law does not violate the amendment, the appeals court said, "unless it impairs the state's ability to maintain a well-regulated militia."
Haney then asked the Supreme Court to intervene.
In his brief to the high court in the Haney case, Olson said the Justice Department agrees with the appeals court in the Emerson case, but urged the justices not to intervene in Haney's case anyway.
(No. 01-8780, Timothy Joe Emerson vs. USA; 01-8272, John Lee Haney vs. USA)




Back to UPI


Washington Times UPI Article
 
He didn't pay his taxes...did you read your own article?

Two full autos equals 400 bucks in taxes. Haney didn't pay...do you understand the NFA laws yet?

Perfectly legal to own full auto in Oklahoma, brother...keep reading.
 
First off, I don't own any full auto's only because my Government has seen fit to make it so that I can not afford them. Thanks,:cuss: :fire:

The constitution was written on the premis that we as a people not a beurocratic state be able to defend our liberties from anyone including our own Gov.
In the spirit of the constitution the Gov. was not trusted nor the state ran military.
We had just been turned by our king and our the british military.
They gauranteed our rights to weapons so that if need be we could rise up and offer a defense against millitary force NOT so we could shoot clay pigeons on the weekend.

This simply means people of this country NEED auto weapons if for no reason other that the millitary has them.

I could almost consider it a patriotic duty.

That is why we need them....

The constitution is a series of checks and balances........
Consider it the ultimate check and balance.......
 
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