Why Do We Use 5.56 instead of 6.8?

[Guero4179]

5.56 only "works" for the USArmy because of suppression and backup
it works for cops because they avoid CQB and have swat snipers for long range.

 

[Al Thompson]

Guero, not sure where your getting that from, but it's not factual.

If it were, the special operations guys would have switched over and that hasn't happened.

 

[gvnwst]

I was just talking with some SF guys (green berets, and one ranger), and they all said they LOVE the 5.56, it allows them to get a lot of rounds on target, and it plenty lethal.

 

[duckman007]

Byron
I'm originally from the suburbs of Atlanta and am retired from law enforcement. I now live near Lake Lanier, which isn't too far from Blue Ridge. Me and my wife have friends in Blue Ridge, beautiful country up there.

I have no arguments at all with taking out the enemy, just relaying what I was told. My first firearms instructor was a Vietnam vet as well. He trained us to tap the bad guy once center mass, and if he was still a threat, once more center mass then once to the head. He would say that it isn't intended to kill, or wound for that matter, it's intended to stop the aggressive behavior. If he dies from his wounds, that's his problem.

 

[61chalk]

Interesting an mostly civil read, I too from long ago heard the 5.56 was made to wound....but we know it kills as well. I read in Outdoor Life a long time ago about how bullets kill game...memory tells me that there are 3 kinds of shock that kills, the large calibers can kill because of the energy an mass on inpact causes a shock wave that can stop blood flow in the viens long enough to cause a heart attack....another type of shock is blood loss....I have always thought that the 5.56 was more on this side, killing by blood loss because of the fragmentation that takes place, causing a more massive wound, where as a larger bullet tumbles leaving a smaller wound....of course, with a headshot it isn't going to matter.....is this correct thinking on my part or is this also a myth? Also in GCA magazine, a SF said he always made sure someone in his squad carried a M1 Garand for distance shooting an plowing through trees, dirt, huts, that the M-16 couldn't do. The 6.8 may very well be use by some SF, but like others have said its going to cost a ton of $ to change over.

 

[possum]

Why Do We Use 5.56 instead of 6.8?

i personally do because my issued m4 is 5.56. therefor i train with a 5.56 ar when i go to training courses, the range etc. i wouldn't mind a 6.8 but ammo avalability and cost is an issue even before the ammo shortage as of late.

 

[amprecon]

I wouldn't give a hoot n' h*ll what I might have been told or trained, if I was in a war and was issued a BB gun, I'd shoot it enough at the BG until he stopped trying to kill me. I don't know what mentality people have about war, but for the grunt in the mud I think the only thing on his mind would be to help his buddies live, survive himself and go home, hopefully not in a body bag.

 

[amprecon]

Our new commander-in-chief just ordered $17 Tril on whatever as an appetizer, tell me we can't afford to move over to the 6.8spc and I'll call you a liar.

 

[Byron]

Hi Amprecon,The reason's you state is why one must continue to fight so that more will come home. One rifle out of a fight is critical. I am Thankful that you have not seen war to understand the decisions one has to make. There have been times that it requires wounded helping wounded.
I know little of the 6.8 but I carried the M193 round and it worked.
Byron

 

[Galadren]

I'd just like to say, to the whole wound vs. kill debate: all bullets are made to kill, even a .22.

 

[RP88]

Well, what advantage does the 6.8 offer that would justify replacing the 5.56 with it?

A heavier, terminally better performance? Why does that matter when - just like the 5.56 - the round will either be used for asymmetric warfare, or against foes whose armor can reliably stop anything short of a full-sized rifle round?

 

[Limeyfellow]

We use 5.56mm NATO because some general insisted on it. The same reason NATO were forced to go to 7.62mm NATO instead of .280 British, which is strangely very similar to 6.8mm SPC, only invented 50 years prior. Once a nation spends a lot of money to switch rounds for tens if not hundreds of thousands of troops it is not easy to switch it. Especially when the advantages are not that great with modern powders.

 

[longdayjake]

because we might as well go to the 7.62x39 if we do that because thats about what you are going to get from it.

 

[Big_E]

For awhile I was anti-5.56, but now I am more tolerant of it. Sure it may not penetrate cover like any caliber larger than .223, but it does its job against unarmored, exposed enemies.

I do think the military shold adopt 6.5 or 6.8 but with the whole money/politics thing it will just have to be delayed. I was also anti-9mm but I realize that it is has been able to kill in situations, I'll keep one or two around, but i'll keep my .40's and .45's for serious situations.

I figure if our politicians and military decided to stop being pusscakes, they would at least let our soldiers use JHP 5.56 ammo and then it would become much more effective. Shot placement is key as well, but in some situations you cannot accurately hit a target in the head/chest/vitals.

 

[Ned Kelly]

Well, what advantage does the 6.8 offer that would justify replacing the 5.56 with it?

A heavier, terminally better performance? Why does that matter when - just like the 5.56 - the round will either be used for asymmetric warfare, or against foes whose armor can reliably stop anything short of a full-sized rifle round?

It boils down to not just Kinetic energy but momentum and Taylor KO factor. Even computer gaming software is using momentum and Taylor KO factor in their terminal ballistics calculations over kinetic energy to make bullet performance more realistic.

The 6.8 has more momentum than a 7.62 x 39 and well over a 5.56

It does make a difference. Spec ops are the ones leading the call for the 6.8 or a revival of the 7.62.

As far as penetration goes. Good composite ceramic plate can stop the top of the line AP ammo from any rifle cartridge short of the .338 Lapua and .50 browning.

 

[madd trapper]

The 6.8 SPC was developed by a 5 th SF SGT Maj a couple of years ago. Special OPS have used this round in Iraq and Afghanistan with excellent results. Local police departments are starting to use the 6.8 SPC.The only thing the Military would need to do is convert all M16s is by; changing the bolt , barrel and magazines. Thats it .With the M4's they could even change from a gas system to a short stroke piston . Which would make the M4 just as reliable as a AK 47. Every Military Armor could do that.It would save lives and taxpayers alot of money.I have used my own 6.8 SPC to harvest deer past 250 yds .The round is effective and has the ballistics of a 257 roberts.

 

[Rshooter]

Why don't we just change over to 7.62 and start issuing M-14's? Seems that they have started issuing some overseas already. I know this may get some in a wad but I do love the M14.

 

[RP88]

It boils down to not just Kinetic energy but momentum and Taylor KO factor.

That is a statistically and scientifically meaningless equation that - as you said - belongs in videogames and for making other merit-less comparisons.

And I'm still wondering where the whining is coming from about the 5.56. The spec ops guy were using 5.56 with very excellent results as well, so I don't see the problem.

 

[pmeisel]

trapper:

It would save lives

why?

taxpayers alot of money.

No way, the changeover costs for general issue would be enormous. Now a SF group can handle something like that, they deal in dozens and hundreds, not tens of thousands.

 

[Ned Kelly]

That is a statistically and scientifically meaningless equation that - as you said - belongs in videogames and for making other merit-less comparisons.

And I'm still wondering where the whining is coming from about the 5.56. The spec ops guy were using 5.56 with very excellent results as well, so I don't see the problem.

Modern pumped up Holy warriors require physical stopping power and not Psychological stopping power.

Getting tagged by a small bullet won't stop a person who is not Psychologically intimidated by being shot.

6.8 and .308 stop better plain and simple.

Would you use a .223 on a deer before you would a .308?

In combat most hits are fringe hits. Not well placed due to the stress of combat. A caliber like the .308 will take down much more reliably when fringe hits are made.

This actually increases the accuracy threshold of the .308, not by making the gun or caliber more accurate but by making one stop target area of the target greater in size.

 

[rbernie]

6.8 and .308 stop better plain and simple.
...
A caliber like the .308 will take down much more reliably when fringe hits are made.

According to what empirical and statistically valid measure of effectivity upon humans?

Common sense would appear to support such a statement, but common sense is also often wrong. If we are going to state such things with such apparent confidence, I would presume that there is some data to back it up - no?

 

[RP88]

I'm not saying that stopping power is unimportant. I'm simply stating that the equation used in Taylor's factor is an old, meritless equation he made up while hunting elephants. There is a lot more to stopping power than the diameter and weight of the bullet nowadays. We also aren't using monstrous bullets and the average muslim extremist is nowhere near the size of an elephant.

Kinetic energy is stopping power. 1325 ft-lbs of force is a lot of power. I'd say that it is more than an adequate amount for putting down a human threat (or similar-sized creatures like deer, if you so wish to talk about hunting). We've all heard of the crack-head who got hit six times center-mass with a .38 or a 9mm FMJ out of a handgun and was able to still put up a fight and/or flee with little impairment to physical capacity, but I'm still waiting to hear about the guy shot center-mass by a 5.56 who shook it off and kept fighting.

 

[Jeff White]

Modern pumped up Holy warriors require physical stopping power and not Psychological stopping power.

Getting tagged by a small bullet won't stop a person who is not Psychologically intimidated by being shot.

6.8 and .308 stop better plain and simple.

Would you use a .223 on a deer before you would a .308?

In combat most hits are fringe hits. Not well placed due to the stress of combat. A caliber like the .308 will take down much more reliably when fringe hits are made.

This actually increases the accuracy threshold of the .308, not by making the gun or caliber more accurate but by making one stop target area of the target greater in size.

Ned, how many modern pumped up Holy Warriors have you personally shot? What is your combat experience? Where did you get your CIB or Combat Action Ribbon?

The fact is, that everything any army has ever taken into combat has had failure to stop issues. The history books are full of first hand accounts of enemy soldiers taking multiple hits from everything from .75 caliber balls from the Brown Bess musket, to .58 caliber miniballs, to .45/70 black powder, to .30/40 Krag, to 8mm Mauser, to .303 to M2 .30 cal ball, to 7.62x51 and 7.62x39 and continuing to fight. The police reports are full of instances where one shot from a .22 short or .25 ACP was enough to render the victim dead right there.

There is no such thing as stopping power. Some people will drop dead on the spot from a seemingly non fatal hit from a round people deride as anemic and others will take an unbelievable amount of damage from high powered military weapons and continue to function. Why is that?

Take the case of PFC Thomas Atkins:
http://www.history.army.mil/html/moh/wwII-a-f.html

ATKINS, THOMAS E.

Rank and organization: Private First Class, U.S. Army, Company A, 127th Infantry, 32d Infantry Division. Place and date: Villa Verde Trail, Luzon, Philippine Islands, 10 March 1945. Entered service at: Campobello, S.C. Birth: Campobello, S.C. G.O. No.: 95, 30 October 1945. Citation: He fought gallantly on the Villa Verde Trail, Luzon, Philippine Islands. With 2 companions he occupied a position on a ridge outside the perimeter defense established by the 1st Platoon on a high hill. At about 3 a.m., 2 companies of Japanese attacked with rifle and machinegun fire, grenades, TNT charges, and land mines, severely wounding Pfc. Atkins and killing his 2 companions. Despite the intense hostile fire and pain from his deep wound, he held his ground and returned heavy fire. After the attack was repulsed, he remained in his precarious position to repel any subsequent assaults instead of returning to the American lines for medical treatment. An enemy machinegun, set up within 20 yards of his foxhole, vainly attempted to drive him off or silence his gun. The Japanese repeatedly made fierce attacks, but for 4 hours, Pfc. Atkins determinedly remained in his fox hole, bearing the brunt of each assault and maintaining steady and accurate fire until each charge was repulsed. At 7 a.m., 13 enemy dead lay in front of his position; he had fired 400 rounds, all he and his 2 dead companions possessed, and had used 3 rifles until each had jammed too badly for further operation. He withdrew during a lull to secure a rifle and more ammunition, and was persuaded to remain for medical treatment. While waiting, he saw a Japanese within the perimeter and, seizing a nearby rifle, killed him. A few minutes later, while lying on a litter, he discovered an enemy group moving up behind the platoon's lines. Despite his severe wound, he sat up, delivered heavy rifle fire against the group and forced them to withdraw. Pfc. Atkins' superb bravery and his fearless determination to hold his post against the main force of repeated enemy attacks, even though painfully wounded, were major factors in enabling his comrades to maintain their lines against a numerically superior enemy force.

Was this incident proof positive that the Japanese army need to change calibers. They failed to stop PFC Atkins despite severely wounding him.

Of course during the same battle many Americans were stopped by their weapons. How do you account for that?

Or how about 1LT Willibald Bianchi:

*BIANCHI, WILLIBALD C.

Rank and organization: First Lieutenant, U.S. Army, 45th Infantry, Philippine Scouts. Place and date: Near Bagac, Bataan Province, Philippine Islands, 3 February 1942. Entered service at: New Ulm, Minn. Birth: New Ulm, Minn. G.O. No.: 11, 5 March 1942. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty in action with the enemy on 3 February 1942, near Bagac, Province of Bataan, Philippine Islands. When the rifle platoon of another company was ordered to wipe out 2 strong enemy machinegun nests, 1st Lt. Bianchi voluntarily and of his own initiative, advanced with the platoon leading part of the men. When wounded early in the action by 2 bullets through the left hand, he did not stop for first aid but discarded his rifle and began firing a pistol. He located a machinegun nest and personally silenced it with grenades. When wounded the second time by 2 machinegun bullets through the chest muscles, 1st Lt. Bianchi climbed to the top of an American tank, manned its antiaircraft machinegun, and fired into strongly held enemy position until knocked completely off the tank by a third severe wound.

Two rounds through his left hand and two machine gun rounds through the chest. Yep, the Japanese army needed to drop the 6.5mm and 7.7mm machine gun rounds because they didn't get the job done that day...

Or take the case of SSG Paul Bolden:

BOLDEN, PAUL L.

Rank and organization: Staff Sergeant, U.S. Army, Company 1, 120th Infantry, 30th Infantry Division. Place and date: Petit-Coo, Belgium, 23 December 1944. Entered service at: Madison, Ala. Birth: Hobbes Island, Iowa. G.O. No.: 73, 30 August 1945-. Citation: He voluntarily attacked a formidable enemy strong point in Petit-Coo, Belgium, on 23 December, 1944, when his company was pinned down by extremely heavy automatic and small-arms fire coming from a house 200 yards to the front. Mortar and tank artillery shells pounded the unit, when S/Sgt. Bolden and a comrade, on their own initiative, moved forward into a hail of bullets to eliminate the ever-increasing fire from the German position. Crawling ahead to close with what they knew was a powerfully armed, vastly superior force, the pair reached the house and took up assault positions, S/Sgt. Bolden under a window, his comrade across the street where he could deliver covering fire. In rapid succession, S/Sgt. Bolden hurled a fragmentation grenade and a white phosphorous grenade into the building; and then, fully realizing that he faced tremendous odds, rushed to the door, threw it open and fired into 35 SS troopers who were trying to reorganize themselves after the havoc wrought by the grenades. Twenty Germans died under fire of his submachinegun before he was struck in the shoulder, chest, and stomach by part of a burst which killed his comrade across the street. He withdrew from the house, waiting for the surviving Germans to come out and surrender. When none appeared in the doorway, he summoned his ebbing strength, overcame the extreme pain he suffered and boldly walked back into the house, firing as he went. He had killed the remaining 15 enemy soldiers when his ammunition ran out. S/Sgt. Bolden's heroic advance against great odds, his fearless assault, and his magnificent display of courage in reentering the building where he had been severely wounded cleared the path for his company and insured the success of its mission.

Struck in the shoulder, chest and stomach he continued to function. Was it the fault of the anemic 8mm Mauser round?

Going back to the Civil War, we find that the .58 caliber miniball wasn't such a great man stopper either:

BANKS, GEORGE L.

Rank and organization: Sergeant, Company C, 15th Indiana Infantry. Place and date: At Missionary Ridge, Tenn., 25 November 1863. Entered service at: Allen County, Ind. Birth: ------. Date of issue: 28 September 1897. Citation: As color bearer, led his regiment in the assault, and, though wounded, carried the nag forward to the enemy's works, where he was again wounded. In a brigade of 8 regiments this flag was the first planted on the parapet.

Twice wounded and still completed his mission.

Then there is William A Barnes:

BARNES, WILLIAM H.

Rank and organization: Private, Company C, 38th U.S. Colored Troops. Place and date: At Chapins Farm, Va., 29 September 1864. Entered service at:------. Birth: St. Marys County, Md. Date of issue 6 April 1865. Citation: Among the first to enter the enemy's works; although wounded.

And in the Philippine Insurrection:

NISPEROS, JOSE B.

Rank and organization: Private, 34th Company, Philippine Scouts. Place and date: At Lapurap, Basilan, Philippine Islands, 24 September 191 1. Entered service at: San Fernandos Union, P.I.. Birth: San Fernandos Union, P.I.. Date of issue: Unknown. Citation: Having been badly wounded (his left arm was broken and lacerated and he had received several spear wounds in the body so that he could not stand) continued to fire his rifle with one hand until the enemy was repulsed, thereby aiding materially in preventing the annihilation of his party and the mutilation of their bodies.

WELD, SETH L.

Rank and organization: Corporal, Company L, 8th U.S. Infantry. Place and date: At La Paz, Leyte, Philippine Islands, 5 December 1906. Entered service at: Altamont, Tenn. Birth: Sandy Hook, Md. Date of issue: 20 October 1908. Citation: With his right arm cut open with a bolo, went to the assistance of a wounded constabulary officer and a fellow soldier who were surrounded by about 40 Pulajanes, and, using his disabled rifle as a club, beat back the assailants and rescued his party.

WETHERBY, JOHN C.

Rank and organization: Private, Company L, 4th U.S. Infantry. Place and date: Near Imus, Luzon, Philippine Islands, 20 November 1899. Entered service at: Martinsville, Ind. Birth: Morgan County, Ind. Date of issue: 25 April 1902. Citation: While carrying important orders on the battlefield, was desperately wounded and, being unable to walk, crawled far enough to deliver his orders.

World War I:

BRONSON, DEMING

Rank and organization: First Lieutenant, U.S. Army, Company H, 364th Infantry, 91st Division. Place and date: Near Eclisfontaine, France, 26-27 September 1918. Entered service at: Seattle, Wash. Born: 8 July 1894, Rhinelander, Wis. G.O. No.: 12 W.D., 1929. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty in action with the enemy. On the morning of 26 September, during the advance of the 364th Infantry, 1st Lt. Bronson was struck by an exploding enemy handgrenade, receiving deep cuts on his face and the back of his head. He nevertheless participated in the action which resulted in the capture of an enemy dugout from which a great number of prisoners were taken. This was effected with difficulty and under extremely hazardous conditions because it was necessary to advance without the advantage of cover and, from an exposed position, throw handgrenades and phosphorous bombs to compel the enemy to surrender. On the afternoon of the same day he was painfully wounded in the left arm by an enemy rifle bullet, and after receiving first aid treatment he was directed to the rear. Disregarding these instructions, 1st Lt. Bronson remained on duty with his company through the night although suffering from severe pain and shock. On the morning of 27 September, his regiment resumed its attack, the object being the village of Eclisfontaine. Company H, to which 1st Lt. Bronson was assigned, was left in support of the attacking line, Company E being in the line. He gallantly joined that company in spite of his wounds and engaged with it in the capture of the village. After the capture he remained with Company E and participated with it in the capture of an enemy machinegun, he himself killing the enemy gunner. Shortly after this encounter the company was compelled to retire due to the heavy enemy artillery barrage. During this retirement 1st Lt. Bronson, who was the last man to leave the advanced position, was again wounded in both arms by an enemy high-explosive shell. He was then assisted to cover by another officer who applied first aid. Although bleeding profusely and faint from the loss of blood, 1st Lt. Bronson remained with the survivors of the company throughout the night of the second day, refusing to go to the rear for treatment. His conspicuous gallantry and spirit of self-sacrifice were a source of great inspiration to the members of the entire command.

*COSTIN, HENRY G.

Rank and organization: Private, U.S. Army, Company H, 115th Infantry, 29th Division. Place and date: Near Bois-de-Consenvoye, France, 8 October 1918. Entered service at: Baltimore, Md. Birth: Baltimore, Md. G.O. No.: 34, W.D., 1919. Citation: When the advance of his platoon had been held up by machinegun fire and a request was made for an automatic rifle team to charge the nest, Pvt. Costin was the first to volunteer. Advancing with his team, under terrific fire of enemy artillery, machineguns, and trench mortars, he continued after all his comrades had become casualties and he himself had been seriously wounded. He operated his rifle until he collapsed. His act resulted in the capture of about 100 prisoners and several machineguns. He succumbed from the effects of his wounds shortly after the accomplishment of his heroic deed.

*DUNN, PARKER F.

Rank and organization: Private First Class, U.S. Army, Company A, 312th Infantry, 78th Division. Place and date: Near Grand-Pre, France, 23 October 1918. Entered service at: Albany, N.Y. Birth: Albany, N.Y. G.O. No.: 49, W.D., 1922. Citation: When his battalion commander found it necessary to send a message to a company in the attacking line and hesitated to order a runner to make the trip because of the extreme danger involved, Pfc. Dunn, a member of the intelligence section, volunteered for the mission. After advancing but a short distance across a field swept by artillery and machinegun fire, he was wounded, but continued on and fell wounded a second time. Still undaunted, he persistently attempted to carry out his mission until he was killed by a machinegun bullet before reaching the advance line.

Korea:

 

[Jeff White]

Korea:

*ABRELL, CHARLES G.

Rank and organization: Corporal, U.S. Marine Corps, Company E, 2d Battalion, 1st Marines, 1st Marine Division (Rein.). Place and date: Hangnyong, Korea, 10 June 1951. Entered service at: Terre Haute, Ind. Born: 12 August 1931, Terre Haute, Ind. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as a fire team leader in Company E, in action against enemy aggressor forces. While advancing with his platoon in an attack against well-concealed and heavily fortified enemy hill positions, Cpl. Abrell voluntarily rushed forward through the assaulting squad which was pinned down by a hail of intense and accurate automatic-weapons fire from a hostile bunker situated on commanding ground. Although previously wounded by enemy hand grenade fragments, he proceeded to carry out a bold, single-handed attack against the bunker, exhorting his comrades to follow him. Sustaining 2 additional wounds as he stormed toward the emplacement, he resolutely pulled the pin from a grenade clutched in his hand and hurled himself bodily into the bunker with the live missile still in his grasp. Fatally wounded in the resulting explosion which killed the entire enemy guncrew within the stronghold, Cpl. Abrell, by his valiant spirit of self-sacrifice in the face of certain death, served to inspire all his comrades and contributed directly to the success of his platoon in attaining its objective. His superb courage and heroic initiative sustain and enhance the highest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service. He gallantly gave his life for his country.

ADAMS, STANLEY T.

Rank and organization: Master Sergeant (then Sfc.), U.S. Army, Company A, 19th Infantry Regiment. Place and date: Near Sesim-ni, Korea, 4 February 1951. Entered service at: Olathe, Kans. Born: 9 May 1922, DeSoto, Kans. G.O. No.: 66, 2 August 1951. Citation: M/Sgt. Adams, Company A, distinguished himself by conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty in action against an enemy. At approximately 0100 hours, M/Sgt. Adams' platoon, holding an outpost some 200 yards ahead of his company, came under a determined attack by an estimated 250 enemy troops. Intense small-arms, machine gun, and mortar fire from 3 sides pressed the platoon back against the main line of resistance. Observing approximately 150 hostile troops silhouetted against the skyline advancing against his platoon, M/Sgt. Adams leaped to his feet, urged his men to fix bayonets, and he, with 13 members of his platoon, charged this hostile force with indomitable courage. Within 50 yards of the enemy M/Sgt. Adams was knocked to the ground when pierced in the leg by an enemy bullet. He jumped to his feet and, ignoring his wound, continued on to close with the enemy when he was knocked down 4 times from the concussion of grenades which had bounced off his body. Shouting orders he charged the enemy positions and engaged them in hand-to-hand combat where man after man fell before his terrific onslaught with bayonet and rifle butt. After nearly an hour of vicious action M/Sgt. Adams and his comrades routed the fanatical foe, killing over 50 and forcing the remainder to withdraw. Upon receiving orders that his battalion was moving back he provided cover fire while his men withdrew. M/Sgt. Adams' superb leadership, incredible courage, and consummate devotion to duty so inspired his comrades that the enemy attack was completely thwarted, saving his battalion from possible disaster. His sustained personal bravery and indomitable fighting spirit against overwhelming odds reflect the utmost glory upon himself and uphold the finest traditions of the infantry and the military service.

Vietnam:

*ANDERSON, RICHARD A.

Rank and organization: Lance Corporal, U.S. Marine Corps, Company E, 3d Reconnaissance Battalion, 3d Marine Division. Place and date: Quang Tri Province, Republic of Vietnam, 24 August 1969. Entered service at: Houston, Tex. Born: 16 April 1948, Washington, D.C. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as an assistant team leader with Company E, in connection with combat operations against an armed enemy. While conducting a patrol during the early morning hours L/Cpl. Anderson's reconnaissance team came under a heavy volume of automatic weapons and machine gun fire from a numerically superior and well concealed enemy force. Although painfully wounded in both legs and knocked to the ground during the initial moments of the fierce fire fight, L/Cpl. Anderson assumed a prone position and continued to deliver intense suppressive fire in an attempt to repulse the attackers. Moments later he was wounded a second time by an enemy soldier who had approached to within 8 feet of the team's position. Undaunted, he continued to pour a relentless stream of fire at the assaulting unit, even while a companion was treating his leg wounds. Observing an enemy grenade land between himself and the other marine, L/Cpl. Anderson immediately rolled over and covered the lethal weapon with his body, absorbing the full effects of the detonation. By his indomitable courage, inspiring initiative, and selfless devotion to duty, L/Cpl. Anderson was instrumental in saving several marines from serious injury or possible death. His actions were in keeping with the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and of the U.S. Naval Service. He gallantly gave his life in the service of his country.

*BARKER, JEDH COLBY

Rank and organization: Lance Corporal, U.S. Marine Corps, Company F, 2d Battalion, 4th Marines, 3d Marine Division (Rein), FMF. Place and date: Near Con Thein, Republic of Vietnam, 21 September 1967. Entered service at: Park Ridge, N.J. Born: 20 June 1945, Franklin, N.H. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as a machine gunner with Company F. During a reconnaissance operation L/Cpl. Barker's squad was suddenly hit by enemy sniper fire. The squad immediately deployed to a combat formation and advanced to a strongly fortified enemy position, when it was again struck by small arms and automatic weapons fire, sustaining numerous casualties. Although wounded by the initial burst of fire, L/Cpl. Barker boldly remained in the open, delivering a devastating volume of accurate fire on the numerically superior force. The enemy was intent upon annihilating the small marine force and, realizing that L/Cpl. Barker was a threat to their position, directed the preponderance of their fire on his position. He was again wounded, this time in the right hand, which prevented him from operating his vitally needed machine gun. Suddenly and without warning, an enemy grenade landed in the midst of the few surviving marines. Unhesitatingly and with complete disregard for his personal safety, L/Cpl. Barker threw himself upon the deadly grenade, absorbing with his body the full and tremendous force of the explosion. In a final act of bravery, he crawled to the side of a wounded comrade and administered first aid before succumbing to his grievous wounds. His bold initiative, intrepid fighting spirit and unwavering devotion to duty in the face of almost certain death undoubtedly saved his comrades from further injury or possible death and reflected great credit upon himself, the Marine Corps, and the U.S. Naval Service. He gallantly gave his life for his country.

BENAVIDEZ, ROY P.

Rank and Organization: Master Sergeant, Detachment B-56, 5th Special Forces Group, Republic of Vietnam. Place and Date: West of Loc Ninh on 2 May 1968. Entered Service at: Houston, Texas June 1955. Date and Place of Birth: 5 August 1935, DeWitt County, Cuero, Texas. Master Sergeant (then Staff Sergeant) Roy P. Benavidez United States Army, who distinguished himself by a series of daring and extremely valorous actions on 2 May 1968 while assigned to Detachment B56, 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne), 1st Special Forces, Republic of Vietnam. On the morning of 2 May 1968, a 12-man Special Forces Reconnaissance Team was inserted by helicopters in a dense jungle area west of Loc Ninh, Vietnam to gather intelligence information about confirmed large-scale enemy activity. This area was controlled and routinely patrolled by the North Vietnamese Army. After a short period of time on the ground, the team met heavy enemy resistance, and requested emergency extraction. Three helicopters attempted extraction, but were unable to land due to intense enemy small arms and anti-aircraft fire. Sergeant Benavidez was at the Forward Operating Base in Loc Ninh monitoring the operation by radio when these helicopters returned to off-load wounded crewmembers and to assess aircraft damage. Sergeant Benavidez voluntarily boarded a returning aircraft to assist in another extraction attempt. Realizing that all the team members were either dead or wounded and unable to move to the pickup zone, he directed the aircraft to a nearby clearing where he jumped from the hovering helicopter, and ran approximately 75 meters under withering small arms fire to the crippled team. Prior to reaching the team's position he was wounded in his right leg, face, and head. Despite these painful injuries, he took charge, repositioning the team members and directing their fire to facilitate the landing of an extraction aircraft, and the loading of wounded and dead team members. He then threw smoke canisters to direct the aircraft to the team's position. Despite his severe wounds and under intense enemy fire, he carried and dragged half of the wounded team members to the awaiting aircraft. He then provided protective fire by running alongside the aircraft as it moved to pick up the remaining team members. As the enemy's fire intensified, he hurried to recover the body and classified documents on the dead team leader. When he reached the leader's body, Sergeant Benavidez was severely wounded by small arms fire in the abdomen and grenade fragments in his back. At nearly the same moment, the aircraft pilot was mortally wounded, and his helicopter crashed. Although in extremely critical condition due to his multiple wounds, Sergeant Benavidez secured the classified documents and made his way back to the wreckage, where he aided the wounded out of the overturned aircraft, and gathered the stunned survivors into a defensive perimeter. Under increasing enemy automatic weapons and grenade fire, he moved around the perimeter distributing water and ammunition to his weary men, reinstilling in them a will to live and fight. Facing a buildup of enemy opposition with a beleaguered team, Sergeant Benavidez mustered his strength, began calling in tactical air strikes and directed the fire from supporting gunships to suppress the enemy's fire and so permit another extraction attempt. He was wounded again in his thigh by small arms fire while administering first aid to a wounded team member just before another extraction helicopter was able to land. His indomitable spirit kept him going as he began to ferry his comrades to the craft. On his second trip with the wounded, he was clubbed from additional wounds to his head and arms before killing his adversary. He then continued under devastating fire to carry the wounded to the helicopter. Upon reaching the aircraft, he spotted and killed two enemy soldiers who were rushing the craft from an angle that prevented the aircraft door gunner from firing upon them. With little strength remaining, he made one last trip to the perimeter to ensure that all classified material had been collected or destroyed, and to bring in the remaining wounded. Only then, in extremely serious condition from numerous wounds and loss of blood, did he allow himself to be pulled into the extraction aircraft. Sergeant Benavidez' gallant choice to join voluntarily his comrades who were in critical straits, to expose himself constantly to withering enemy fire, and his refusal to be stopped despite numerous severe wounds, saved the lives of at least eight men. His fearless personal leadership, tenacious devotion to duty, and extremely valorous actions in the face of overwhelming odds were in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service, and reflect the utmost credit on him and the United States Army.

As you can see, human beings are capable of taking tremendous damage and still being able to function. You can't read accounts like these and still believe in things like stopping power and magic bullets. There are no magic bullets and no caliber exists that gives one shot stops.

Why is it that when American soldiers don't instantly fall over incapacitated or dead it's a MOH or Silver Star, but when an enemy soldier doesn't immediately die from any hit with one of our rounds, there is something wrong with our weapons or ammunition?

We are not changing caliber or ammunition because there are no systematic problems with what we presently are using. It's just that simple.

Caliber wars make for great expenditures of bandwidth on the internet, but in the real world they are meaningless.

 

[Portedglock26]

Because 7.62 would just be too big for us Americans.