Why does firearm choice for hunting often stir so much controversy?
- Thread starter Jason_W
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Andrew this^^^^ which I wrote is from post #43 prior to yours. I stand corrected and did apologize to you sir. That was the first mistake I've ever made in my life and I assure you it won't happen again!!
The next time I'm in South Africa we'll have a "sudden death" thumb wrestling match to break the tie, winner takes all!
What truly make me laugh is the argument I hear quite few times (too many times unfortunately) usually from big bore fanatics is that all it matters is bullet diameter and bullet weight (the "momentum" theory), energy is a useless parameter, so is sectional density or velocity....I usually listen to people telling me this quietly and at the end of their argument I say "so according to your logic a 45 ACP round is a more effective round than a 300 Winchester Magnum"....pause....rolling eyes...hmmm....
Once a guy spouting such nonsense tried a way out telling me "well that does not count, one is a pistol round and another is a rifle round" :banghead:
Once a guy spouting such nonsense tried a way out telling me "well that does not count, one is a pistol round and another is a rifle round" :banghead:
sage5907
Member
Quote: "Perhaps it is because a broad-head hunting arrow, in one side and out the other of a deers chest?
Will result in a DRT deer within 75 yards or less, and a blood trail Ray Charles could follow to find it. They usually are not in a great deal of pain, or any pain, and often just kick at the arrow when hit like a fly bit them.
A small caliber round, using the wrong type bullet, can result in a massive flesh wound and a badly wounded deer that may travel a long distance with no blood trail.
And suffer a slow and painful death a day or three later.
And it seems too me it is too likely a novice hunter with little firearms knowledge and a .223 will go to Wallyworld, buy a box of varmint loads, pop a deer in the shoulder bone, and then wonder why it ran off dragging one leg where he couldn't't find it.
rc"
What rcmodel said!
Will result in a DRT deer within 75 yards or less, and a blood trail Ray Charles could follow to find it. They usually are not in a great deal of pain, or any pain, and often just kick at the arrow when hit like a fly bit them.
A small caliber round, using the wrong type bullet, can result in a massive flesh wound and a badly wounded deer that may travel a long distance with no blood trail.
And suffer a slow and painful death a day or three later.
And it seems too me it is too likely a novice hunter with little firearms knowledge and a .223 will go to Wallyworld, buy a box of varmint loads, pop a deer in the shoulder bone, and then wonder why it ran off dragging one leg where he couldn't't find it.
rc"
What rcmodel said!
Andrew Leigh
Member
Andrew this^^^^ which I wrote is from post #43 prior to yours. I stand corrected and did apologize to you sir. That was the first mistake I've ever made in my life and I assure you it won't happen again!!
The next time I'm in South Africa we'll have a "sudden death" thumb wrestling match to break the tie, winner takes all!
Cool.
You come to my neck of the woods again and don't look me up and you are in trouble, even if I meet you at the airport during a transit.
Cheers
Saturno v,
I think you make a valid point....except that big bore fanatics (I am one of those) are talking about 400-500 gr bullets at ~1300-2000 fps (I'm more of a ~1500 fps kinda guy).
Standard 300WM load is ~180 gr at ~3100 fps.
45ACP is 230 gr at ~850.
You and I both know that's not a fair comparison. And those who don't have a rebuttal for your argument other that "well thats a pistol round!" are uneducated. Of course the 230 gr 45 is bigger and slower than the 180 gr 300WM. But we're talking ~ 2X's the weight of the ACP ~2 1/2 the weight of the 300WM and ~2X's the velocity of the ACP in the big bores.
So which is going to go through more water filled barrels? A Prius at 70 mph or a 1 ton with a ranch hand bumper at 55?
I think you make a valid point....except that big bore fanatics (I am one of those) are talking about 400-500 gr bullets at ~1300-2000 fps (I'm more of a ~1500 fps kinda guy).
Standard 300WM load is ~180 gr at ~3100 fps.
45ACP is 230 gr at ~850.
You and I both know that's not a fair comparison. And those who don't have a rebuttal for your argument other that "well thats a pistol round!" are uneducated. Of course the 230 gr 45 is bigger and slower than the 180 gr 300WM. But we're talking ~ 2X's the weight of the ACP ~2 1/2 the weight of the 300WM and ~2X's the velocity of the ACP in the big bores.
So which is going to go through more water filled barrels? A Prius at 70 mph or a 1 ton with a ranch hand bumper at 55?
Depending on sectional density
..and the prius-like bullet would crumple, let's call it "expansion"......
Joking aside, I understand what you say however velocity (and consequently energy) and SD still rule all things being equal (bullet deformation, construction, etc...)
This is the reason why a modern +P 45-70 500 gr. loading is considered a decent African cartridge where the old black powder original loading is not.....the former is heavier (higher SD) and significantly faster..
Hypervelocity rounds have their own drawbacks especially at very short distances...bullet behavior can become unpredictable, they can literally explode on impact causing only superficial wounds...I read and heard of few cases of whitetail lost to the 300 Magnums because of this where a 30-30 bullet would have peformed perfectly and far more deadly...
However I love big bores too by the way!! On the prowl for the right deal on a 45-70 Marlin (I want one really badly) and a true African rifle (.400+ cal) for my collection.
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Lol. Yes, the pop can would crumble. It turn dispensing all it's kinetic energy much sooner than the 1 ton with the solid steel bumper that doesn't "expand. But in this case, bullet construction, bullet weight, and velocity cannot be equal. .458 vs .308. It just cant Be the same. That's pretty much the moot argument with the "which is better .308 vs 30-06?" The '06 has more "potential" due to increased case length and subsequent powder charge. But apples to apples, they are the same.
My advice on you getting a Marlin 45-70 is, DO IT!!! And you will quickly realize why it has so many dedicated fans. Mine is a JM stamped 1895. No guide gun or tac rail, just the original. Shoulders and swings like a dream. Way more accurate that I am. And I got a pretty good deal on mine. Free. It was 1 year old at the time and MAYBE 30 rounds through it.
My advice on you getting a Marlin 45-70 is, DO IT!!! And you will quickly realize why it has so many dedicated fans. Mine is a JM stamped 1895. No guide gun or tac rail, just the original. Shoulders and swings like a dream. Way more accurate that I am. And I got a pretty good deal on mine. Free. It was 1 year old at the time and MAYBE 30 rounds through it.
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Brake Weight
Member
I worked with a man last year in his early 50s with an uh oh baby. She is around 10 now. He is an avid outdoorsman and has trained her well. She hunts with a crack back H&R .223 and has taken more deer per year than he has every year she's hunted. She knows the vitals and has a shot placement like non other he says. Never lost a deer she's shot at and never had to track one. He also claims she's passed on more deer than she's taken. Granted these are Mississippi woods and less than 100 yard shots. But her knowing she's only got one chance makes her wait for the right shot. Something many take for granted thinking they'll get a second chance on a wounded animal.
Personally; location, desired game, and mood decide the gun. Small game-small caliber, but a .357m or .44m on the hip just in case. Deer-anything from a 25-06 to a slug gun is good for me in these woods.
You hunt, or at least witness, far different hunting techniques than I use or have witnessed. Deer are not in short supply here, and no one is going to starve, or not get their deer, by taking a less than good shot. If 90% of the hunters you observe or hunt with HAVE to "shoot a fur if they see it" I'd look into getting new hunting buddies or surrounding yourself with better people...actual "hunters" as opposed to "people who shoot at deer"......There's a significant difference. 90%? Damn, thats bad.....I won't say I've never seen that sort of behavior from people, but in my experience, it would be the 90% who actually take shots they will make, and 10% that will shoot at anything that gives them somewhat of an opportunity. Personally, I'd much rather not shoot than miss or make a bad hit, and thats regardless if I'm hunting with a .223 or a 7mm Magnum....both do the job, but both shine under completely different circumstances....
All I want is a traditional 22" run of the mill Marlin 1895 blued, no ported barrel and with Ballard rifling, no microgroove
I would go for a screaming deal on a XLR 24" even if I'm not a big fan of stainless steel guns and I do not like that stock finishing.
Not particular fond of the 26" octagonal barrel version either...too "antique feeling" for me.
My ideal would be a 24" 1895 blued with full length magazine but it does not exist....
You just described my gun, minus the full length tube because it doesn't exist. You will be very happy with it. If you reload, it might be one of your most versatile rifles. YMMV of course. Hand loading opens up all kinds of possibilities for so many different cartridges.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Kinda sorta wandered off from where this all started. The "Page 3 Syndrome".
MCgunner
Member
So, what you're REALLY saying is YES, energy DOES matter? What does it really matter how you get that energy, via mass or velocity or a combination of both?
I clocked my CVA Wolf the other day, first time, over my chrony. The 385 grain bullet loaded over 70 grains FFF triple 7 did over 1800 fps, energy IIRC (could look it up, but I'm lazy) was up around 2800 ft lbs +! Now, THAT is a big bullet making some big energy, but I'll leave it at home if I hunt west Texas or New Mexico again. Range is limited and if I hunt New Mexico again, ever, it'll be during the early BP season when I'll have to take my Hawken to be legal as a "primitive" weapon. It works best with BP or Pyrodex and the same 385 grain Hornady Great Plains minie.
I think of that Wolf as a .50-90 Sharps without the brass.
It's very accurate and all I need in the woods around here. And advantage to the big bullet approach is that you can use a simple chunk of non-expanding lead (it's pre expanded) and as Art says, eat right up to the hole. It doesn't leave the meat damage that I've seen with expanding bullets at close range in magnum calibers.Oh, I've had those same conversations with the "big bore" fans in the past, the "energy doesn't matter" crowd.
MCgunner
Member
Okay, I drifted off topic a bit again....sorry. Not really, though, it has to do with caliber wars, right?
MC,
I'm not sure which side you're debating for. Smaller/faster or bigger/slower. But yes, energy does matter. While mass and velocity are "cohabitants" in terminal ballistics, they are not mutually exclusive. That's why the 45 and 300WM is not a fair comparison. But when penetration is desired over hydrostatic shock, bigger/slower, solid/harsdcast is the winner. And you, Art and I know that a big hardcast right behind the shoulder is not always, but usually, a very short tracking job if it isn't DRT. It also equals more clean meat and less hamburger.
We all have our favorites for our own reason(s). Doesn't mean that any of them are wrong. .223-338 Lap. In the hands of the right rifleman, with the right bullet, all are deadly.
I'm not sure which side you're debating for. Smaller/faster or bigger/slower. But yes, energy does matter. While mass and velocity are "cohabitants" in terminal ballistics, they are not mutually exclusive. That's why the 45 and 300WM is not a fair comparison. But when penetration is desired over hydrostatic shock, bigger/slower, solid/harsdcast is the winner. And you, Art and I know that a big hardcast right behind the shoulder is not always, but usually, a very short tracking job if it isn't DRT. It also equals more clean meat and less hamburger.
We all have our favorites for our own reason(s). Doesn't mean that any of them are wrong. .223-338 Lap. In the hands of the right rifleman, with the right bullet, all are deadly.
Because too many here use the caliber X is better than caliber Z because the hunter using caliber Z will be a moron that takes too long of shot for conditions and or ability and thus proves that caliber X is the best and by extension proves that a hunter equiped with caliber X is the best.
MCgunner
Member
I'm not arguing FOR either approach. I'm saying both work via they make enough energy. Each approach has its merits and weaknesses. If you have shots across open canyons at 350 yards, you'll probably be biased toward the smaller bore, higher velocity gun with the high ballistic coefficients. If you're hunting woods like I am now, you might want the benefits of that big bore gun. As you say, less hamburger, more undamaged meat, and a GREAT hole to put blood on the ground. Either approach will work in the woods, but across those canyons the high velocity approach is my preference. Not saying a .50-110 can't shoot 400 yards. Hell, that shot at Adobe Walls was what, a mile? Probably a LOT easier with the HV rifle, though, and more ethical to try.
So, you see, I'm taking both sides of the "argument". I see the merits and weaknesses of either the big bore/slow or the small bore/fast approach. I'm not really a fan boy of either, like owning both. Closest thing I have to a big bore cartridge rifle is a .357 lever carbine. I've thought of getting a .454 or a .45-70, but there ain't nothin' around here I'm that mad at.
That front stuffer is WAY cool, though, and I enjoy hunting with it even if it IS in rifle season. I think of it as a modern rifle, just slow to load.BTW, the old standby with magazine writers was always 1000 ft lbs minimum on deer, 1500 on elk. Well, with a big bore gun, I really don't think that's accurate. You can probably drop down to 800 for the big bores if not a little less. I totally have no proof of this, it's just a feeling I get from hunting with both and with handgun calibers. Don't ask me to prove it 'cause I can't. It's JMHO.
buck460XVR
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Kinda sorta wandered off from where this all started. The "Page 3 Syndrome".
....at least it MADE it to page three!
ZeroJunk
Member
Because there is little about the benefits of this or that cartridge over this or that other cartridge that can actually be proven.
As far as the U.S , chances are that if the 30-06 was the only cartridge ever invented the total number of animals taken would be the same. Might even be higher.
As far as the U.S , chances are that if the 30-06 was the only cartridge ever invented the total number of animals taken would be the same. Might even be higher.
Just to make sure...the hydrostatic shock theory has never been scientifically proven....small local area of hydrostatic displacement do occur with very high velocity rounds (the concept for example is totally laughable with handgun rounds) but if that adds to the stopping power is very debatable and up in the air.
Bullets kill destroying tissue along its path and penetrating to vitals, the factor influencing this are bullet diameter (including expansion in the equation when solid are not used) the velocity/energy duo and bullet SD, shape (for solids) and construction. That much is proven and not debatable.
That is very correct....there are several variables that are in place for every shot that is taken.....every situation is different.....people remain baffled sometimes in an apparently similar scenarios where for example a deer is lost to a 300 WM but drop like a sack of potato with a 30-30......
Bullets kill destroying tissue along its path and penetrating to vitals, the factor influencing this are bullet diameter (including expansion in the equation when solid are not used) the velocity/energy duo and bullet SD, shape (for solids) and construction. That much is proven and not debatable.
That is very correct....there are several variables that are in place for every shot that is taken.....every situation is different.....people remain baffled sometimes in an apparently similar scenarios where for example a deer is lost to a 300 WM but drop like a sack of potato with a 30-30......
MCgunner
Member
NO theory of terminal ballistics is "proven", but the support for "ballistic pressure wave" affects on nerve cells remote to the wound path and the research done by Dr. Michael Courtney is very compelling to me. It explains a lot of my bang/flop lung shots for one. I'm swayed by his research, but I was already trying to explain these things when I stumbled upon his research...actually, on this forum.
True but this:
Bullets kill destroying tissue along its path and penetrating to vitals, the factor influencing this are bullet diameter (including expansion in the equation when solid are not used) the velocity/energy duo and bullet SD, shape (for solids) and construction. That much is proven and not debatable.
Is not a theory, these are observable facts....I think we can all agree that if exactly the same shot is taken with a .22 cal bullet vs a .50 cal bulet (same shape) the .50 cal will destroy more tissue along the way and that if you do not reach the vitals (or break bones) an animal is not going down.
The potential hydrostatic shock effects are ancillary to this.....
Personally I think that a lot of bang-flop situations are more due to the particular state of the animal at that time than anything else....my opinion.
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MCgunner
Member
Another reason for caliber wars online, at least on hunting forums....there's only small game this time of year and other places not even that. So, there's no hunting stories, pix to post of fresh kills. Gotta post SOMEthing!
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