Why does the 6.5 Creedmoor Crowd claim the 143 ELD-X as the Bullet that Beats the .270 Winchester?

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Can you think of a logical, non emotional argument, for why they should pick one over the other?

Pffft! Of course not. But let's not be silly. What would logic have to do with any of it?:)

I have three different powder ladders worked and ready for two different rifles and all my brass is clean, sized and primed. The drive to the cabin has been blocked since the ice storm. And I am missing out on the March Rimfire challenge because of it. I have worn out my air rifle this winter and the squirrels must know it, for they torment me by chewing on the snow blower. Why the Snowblower?:confused: The little...
I am dying slowly inside from lack of nitroglycerin. Luckily some folks take this a little too seriously, which keeps that little spark in me lit.:D

That, and everyone knows the Two Seventy sucks...:p

The Six and a half Aught Six though, now we're talking! :rofl:
 
I would say buy a .308, it has proved its self from target to hunting to war and ammo is every where and cheap along with good bullets to chose from. light to heavy-varmite-big game-target. but its over 60 years old and time to retire it. and a sure as green apples the 6.5cm with also fade into the sun set in the future, so we better enjoy it while we can.
 
The tongue in cheek insinuations that people are going to throw away their old antiquated (insert caliber here) are just stupid. Nobody cares what you shoot and we all know they are perfectly effective.

Lets drive this in another direction. Lets say you were advising a new young shooter that was looking to buy their first deer rifle, one that they intend to hunt with for many years and shoot 200 or 300 rounds a year at the range with to build skills. They have $600 to spend on a new rifle and optic and they don't handload. Can you think of a logical, non emotional argument, for why they should pick one over the other? I can think of a half dozen in favor of the 6.5c, but the only thing I can think of in favor of the 270 is slightly more muzzle energy. If we add elk to that scenario does your answer change?

That was the point.

In the field, out to normal hunting ranges:

W/ heavier bullets - the .270 outperforms the 6.5 CM/-08/SW.
W/ lighter bullets - the 6.5 CM/-08/SW mimic the .270, w/ less recoil.

Past normal hunting ranges? They are all about equally useless (or irresponsible).



I think that might change if Ackley had access to some of the powders available today. He felt a number of the Imps were already so overbore, that they were not worth improving.
If i remember correctly, the best option for that class of overbore cartridge were the 4831s, or perhaps even the 4350s.

Personally i prefer the Gibbs to the Ackleys, simply because almost all of the 06 based cartridges have kinda long necks (IMO), and the .270s are longer than the rest...

P.O. Ackley demonstrated that the .277 round (as well as the .25 and no doubt the .264) was an efficient match for the -03 case.

Case neck? The 150 gr. bullets protrude just at or past the shoulder, depending on the bullet and OAL.

Powder? Sure, most cartridges will benefit from the new "superperformance" powders. It will be interesting when HDY releases the data for the .270. But w/ the "older" powders, (IMR 4831 for a 22" Bbl.), the load is near compressed at the top of the pressure curve and the burn is very good, producing both good accuracy and high velocities.

Twist rate? How is faster going to stabilize a 150 gr. .277 bullet any better? Any heavier and the case capacity results in a low-performance hunting round, like the 6.5 or any other "military" based cartridge pushed past its limit. That is what a bigger case/less efficient magnum is for.


This was a field performance OP.

The discussion didn't make it that far.



...The Six and a half Aught Six though, now we're talking! :rofl:

Probably the best of the bunch.




GR
 
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Lets say you were advising a new young shooter that was looking to buy their first deer rifle, one that they intend to hunt with for many years and shoot 200 or 300 rounds a year at the range with to build skills.

This is really what I try to let guide me. Both for new rifles I buy for myself, but especially for rifles I might recommend to new shooters.

It’s simply bad advice and unfair for an older generation of gun owners (regardless of actual chronological age) to recommend away from new cartridges on the basis of older cartridges.

As an example to that end, I am a huge (completely subjective) fan of the 7mm Remington Magnum, but I absolutely do not recommend one for a would-be new rifle hunter, or especially a new long range rifle shooter. Between ~20 and 30years ago, I was splitting time living in Texas, Minnesota, and Kansas, with family cattle partners in Colorado and Wyoming. The 7mm Rem mag was highly recommended in all of these local “networks” as a remarkably effective long range rifle, especially for hunting. So I HAD to have one, and I picked up a Sendero 700 in 7RM. It didn’t do anything the 30-06 I already had wasn’t doing, except weigh more, cost more to shoot and reload, bark louder - and blow out a lot of extra meat from a couple speedgoats. I’m not saying the 7mm mag was anything bad for the task, and I remain to LOVE the round, but in 2019 if a new hunter asks me what rifle to buy for Kansas whitetails & mulies, and occasional Colorado elk and Wyoming pronghorn trips, I just can’t responsibly tell them to buy a 7mm Rem Mag. I absolutely fell in love with the 7mm Mauser at 17yrs old, and still feel giddy every time I send one down range - but equally, I just can’t tell a new rifle buyer, especially a young person, to buy a 7mm Mauser. The Swede is the same for me. Admittedly, I never have had a taste for the 270win, almost wholly subjective disfavor, as my brother had a 270win and I had a .30-06, but I look a new buyer in the face and say they are the “best” option for anything at all moving from 2019 forward.

The ONLY viable justification I can support in these “new versus old” arguments is ammo and brass supply - for example, certainly a 7mm Rem mag has a better pipeline than a 6.5 PRC, so such consideration is substantially and objectively valid. Alternatively, there’s no better supply chain for 270win vs. 6.5 creed, so that’s really not a consideration between these two.

Sticking with the old you own is fine, nobody is asking you to buy anything new, and I feel bad for GR and those in this thread who feel the need to count the angels on the head of a pin just to feel good about the old rifle they own. But recommending old to the next generation without considering and acknowledging the virtues of the new is just silly. Technology builds upon technology - the great ideas of the past are great products of today, and are great foundations of tomorrow.

I’m a young man (kinda still), but I have owned already some of my rifles for over 25 years. I’ll hunt one of my .30-06’s until I can no longer hunt, God willing another 30+ years. My son will get a deer rifle this year of his own, at 5yrs old. I cannot, in good conscience, tell my son a .30-06 is the best cartridge for his hunting pursuits for the next 60+ years of his life. Not a .270, nor 7mm Rem mag, or any Mauser cartridge.... doesn’t matter if I like it or not.

So this thread, and a dozen others like it on this forum, and hundreds if not thousands more like it around the web just doesn’t deserve to live. It’s just silliness, akin to foolish old “hold outs” who refuse to use a “new fangled smart phone” - I think less of people who insist on refusing “new” because it is new.
 
That was the point.

In the field, out to normal hunting ranges:

W/ heavier bullets - the .270 outperforms the 6.5 CM/-08/SW.

Outperforms it how? Will a 140 grain partition at 2700 fps make an elk more deaderer than a 150 grain partition at 2800 fps? Yes, the 270 has more energy, no contest there, but when I look at the ballistics of both out to 300 yards I just don't see much difference. If you compare the 143 and 145 eldx bullets for both calibers there is even less difference.
 
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If a user creates a thread with no other intent than flinging poo, he has to expect to get some schitt on his shirt.

I just went back and re-read the OP to see if there's something I missed and still I don't see any poo slinging going on.

It starts out looking to be rough with the "why does everyone say the 143gr 6.5CM is a 270Win killer? It's an entire rung below the 270Win" or something of that effect and then goes on to compare some 150gr 270Win loads to the 143gr 6.5CM.

THEN, states where the CM shines is with the lighter bullets, I believe 120-125gr vs the 270Win with 130gr bullets followed by complements of the 6.5CM and goes on to say he feels his next rifle will be a 6.5CM for that reason.

I'm not sure I follow where the OP was out of line at all? I do know the very next post was condescending and many after that were too. Lots of trash talk about how badly designed the 270Win is and it's trash and its garbage and I'm trying to get this thread shut down, etc.

I'm sorry, so far I like all the posters I've had contact with and I mean no offense but the poo slinging and insulting comments have mainly come from one side of this and appears to be from people skipping over the OP assuming something else was meant. I recommend re-reading the OP and doing so with an open mind, not looking for it to contain snide comments. You might be surprised once your finished reading the entire post.

Just my opinion

As far as how viable the 270Win is now, yes there's other cartridges out there that kill just as well with less powder, less recoil, newer designs, they are good and I have no reason to go against them. I usually recommend the 6.5CM to people in my area for a deer rifle. For the reasons I just listed as well as ammo being very accessible. With that said, if a person has either the 270Win or the 6.5CM already I wouldn't feel the other one has much to add to what they already own. These are not collectors, they don't shoot long range. They are hunters in a somewhat hilly country in my area. Most shots are inside 200yds. Lots of chamberings would work actually.
 
There is hope for the 270 after all. My friend who shoots long range precision competition has a new 270 rifle that uses 300 Norma cases, has a 277 bore, uses 170 grain Hornady bullets, and velocity, BC and SD are all higher than the 6.5 bullets. Hope this doesn't upset anyone.

Prolly w/ a higher twist rate, for sure.

As for field shooting - the Nosler 150 gr. AB-LR has some good numbers, though have yet to see how it takes game at 3-400 yards.

Supposed to work fine out of the ole inefficient/slow-twist W.C.F. pointy rock.

:D




GR
 
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Outperforms it how? Will a 140 grain partition at 2700 fps make an elk more deaderer than a 150 grain partition at 2800 fps? Yes, the 270 has more energy, no contest there, but when I look at the ballistics of both out to 300 yards I just don't see much difference.

Subjectively/Objectively/Empirically.

They all work - and they all fail.

At 300 yards (although the 2700 is a 24" Bbl. hot load, while the 2800 is a 22" Bbl. factory load) the difference becomes less apparent.

For a 6"MPBR the 6.5/140 gr. will be < 100 fps slower, ~ 200 lb-ft lower, and have ~ 4" more drop.

Still, meat in the freezer by most accounts.

Bigger animals w/ poorer presentations come into play.

A pointy stick will kill an elephant. "deaderer"...?

If the extra energy and trajectory of a cartridge improves your chances of a "better" kill, w/o exceeding your economy/accuracy/tolerance?

Funny, used to have this discussion b/t the 30-06 and the .270, RE: Elk and Muley/Minnesota Whitetail "Texas Heart" shots.




GR
 
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That was the point.

In the field, out to normal hunting ranges:

W/ heavier bullets - the .270 outperforms the 6.5 CM/-08/SW.
W/ lighter bullets - the 6.5 CM/-08/SW mimic the .270, w/ less recoil.

Past normal hunting ranges? They are all about equally useless (or irresponsible).





P.O. Ackley demonstrated that the .277 round (as well as the .25 and no doubt the .264) was an efficient match for the -03 case.

Case neck? The 150 gr. bullets protrude just at or past the shoulder, depending on the bullet and OAL.

Powder? Sure, most cartridges will benefit from the new "superperformance" powders. It will be interesting when HDY releases the data for the .270. But w/ the "older" powders, (IMR 4831 for a 22" Bbl.), the load is near compressed at the top of the pressure curve and the burn is very good, producing both good accuracy and high velocities.

Twist rate? How is faster going to stabilize a 150 gr. .277 bullet any better? Any heavier and the case capacity results in a low-performance hunting round, like the 6.5 or any other "military" based cartridge pushed past its limit. That is what a bigger case/less efficient magnum is for.


This was a field performance OP.

The discussion didn't make it that far.





Probably the best of the bunch.




GR


The 150gr .277s are pretty blunt, mostly due to having a slower twist rate. Even the ablr is under .6 and stability is questionable in a 1-10....I've said all this before tho.
Personally I would want to use the 175bergers, which necessitates, both a faster twist and larger, or possibly improved/Gibbs case.
The long necks are supposed to enhance accuracy, but I've never had an inaccurate .300wm, and honestly I just like the way the shorter neck looks.

In the end it's all personal preference, and truth is, people get butt hurt when some craps on their cartridge new, or old. Again, I simply offer my opinions (what ever they are worth) on the 6.5 and .270 because they aren't MY cartridges, even tho I like one, and dislike the other.
Other folks opinions will differ.
You talk crap about the 7 rem mag and I'll get all huffy tho.

Speaking of gratuitous gun porn!
IMG_20190319_073142-2016x1512.jpg
 
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The 150gr .277s are pretty blunt, mostly due to having a slower twist rate. Even the ablr is under .6 and stability is questionable in a 1-10....I've said all this before tho.
Personally I would want to use the 175bergers, which necessitates, both a faster twist and larger, or possibly improved/Gibbs case.
The long necks are supposed to enhance accuracy, but I've never had an inaccurate .300wm, and honestly I just like the way the shorter neck looks.

In the end it's all personal preference, and truth is, people get butt hurt when some craps on their cartridge new, or old. Again, I simply offer my opinions (what ever you hey are worth) on the 6.5 and .270 because they aren't MY cartridges, even tho I like one, and dislike the other.
Other folks opinions will differ.
You talk crap about the 7 rem mag and I'll get all huffy tho.

Speaking of gratuitous gun porn!
View attachment 831983

The 150 gr. NP is 0.465, and the Hot-Cor fodder is close enough to that for load development and practice.

That also gives me a top-of-back hold w/ factory ammo at 400 yards - which, from field positions, is way the hell out there.


This Thread is kind of a "Bizarro world" thing and reminds me of my .40 S&W.

For decades, it was the "Short&Weak" to the 10mm crowd - and now it's the "Scary&Whippy" to the 9mm bunch. Endless crap-storm comin'n'goin'. Ha!

The ole .270 Win appears to be in the same predicament.

Well... the .270 feeds my family, and the .40 protects'em, all the same, low these many decades.

No complaints.




GR
 
At least we can all agree on blued steel, walnut wood without bedding, and the Walker trigger, none of which can be supplanted by so-called tekanowlogy. Let’s just pray to keep our triple base dry.

Now I’m wondering:
Well... the .270 feeds my family, and the .40 protects'em, all the same, low these many decades.

Then why is the author now fixated on buying a 6.5CM that by his own admission only keeps up with .270 when using a lightweight bullet? I believe this is the ruse no one has fallen for and so many alluded to.

All the same I care little for what other people choose so long as they enjoy it responsibly. Heck I’m looking at a $1,500 factory rifle that won’t be nearly as accurate as a semi-custom build. Nah, doubt I’ll be deterred.

PS: do you think the Mods are waiting for a natural death here after which infractions will be handed out like Halloween?
 
I would say buy a .308, it has proved its self from target to hunting to war and ammo is every where and cheap along with good bullets to chose from. light to heavy-varmite-big game-target. but its over 60 years old and time to retire it. and a sure as green apples the 6.5cm with also fade into the sun set in the future, so we better enjoy it while we can.

Finally someone is talking some sense in this thread!
 
The ONLY viable justification I can support in these “new versus old” arguments is ammo and brass supply - for example, certainly a 7mm Rem mag has a better pipeline than a 6.5 PRC, so such consideration is substantially and objectively valid. Alternatively, there’s no better supply chain for 270win vs. 6.5 creed, so that’s really not a consideration between these two.

And if someone wants to pick their gun based on local ammo availability, that's completely understandable. Get a .30-06 or a .270 or a .308 or a 7mm Mag. They're all very well supported. But for the shooter who's going to hand load all their hunting ammo, buying brass for a .280 AI isn't any different from brass for a .270 (I'd get Nosler for either) and the .280 AI will run rings around the .270 - between the better bullets that require a faster twist and the extra case capacity and shoulder efficiency it's not really that close.

Also, it's easy to see no difference between cartridges when shooting small to medium animals at modest distances. Anything will work. My .50-110 would work, even if it's like chucking Buicks at the deer. It's the longer western shots on bigger animals that benefit from better cartridges, higher SDs, and higher BCs. That's where I'd much rather have a 160gr .264 Weldcore than anything available in .277 even if the 6.5 is on a smaller case. Move up to any of the long action 6.5s, and the gap widens further.
 
I say the 7mm Allen Magnum with a 195gr ULD RBBT. It runs circles around the 280AI.

Or the 270 AM or 277 AM if we want a .277 version and using 196gr ULD RBBT bullet would be a long range monster.

With either we will need a rebarrel after it's sighted in but so what. :D
 
I say the 7mm Allen Magnum with a 195gr ULD RBBT. It runs circles around the 280AI.

Or the 270 AM or 277 AM if we want a .277 version and using 196gr ULD RBBT bullet would be a long range monster.

4 pages later, can’t say I didn’t call it days ago...

That anemic .270 can’t hold a candle to a 7mm Remington Ultra Magnum, so I can’t fathom why anyone would ever want to own a .270win when the vastly superior 7mm RUM is on the market.

Who wants dibs on the next rung? Contender hints might be 338-378, 338 Norma, 338 Lapua, but let’s see some creativity...
 
Case capacity is one thing. Efficiency, low drag and high SD is another. The .270 is a relatively large, but inefficient case with high drag low SD projectiles. The 6.5CM is an efficient case with low drag and high SD projectiles. That why even though it's got a smaller case and drives projectiles a little slower, it's not much slower and in practice is better on larger game.

I'd be the last to argue that everyone needs a bigger case. But for the case size you're looking at, it makes sense to pick an efficient case in a caliber with high-SD and BC projectiles. That way you get more terminal effect on the animals farther away for the same recoil, weight, and required action size. That's where many older cartridges fall short - they give you less capability and more of everything you don't want.
 
...Now I’m wondering:


Then why is the author now fixated on buying a 6.5CM that by his own admission only keeps up with .270 when using a lightweight bullet? I believe this is the ruse no one has fallen for and so many alluded to....

Because:
The ole M700 wood'n'steel .270/150 gr. - weighs 8.5 lbs.
The new M70 EW/SS .270/150 gr. - weighs ~ 8.25 lbs.
< Tikka Superlite 6.5 CM/125 gr. >
The M77 .357 Mag. 158-180 gr. weighs ~ 6.5 lbs.

When spec'ing the new rifle, all available cartridges were considered and researched.

And, for that size and weight rifle, the .270 offered a performance premium without eclipsing my recoil envelope. (and I already have a ton of ammo for it. )

The 6.5 CM/125 gr. NP would be an outstanding round for a light recoiling medium range short-action ultralite mountain rifle, to complement the 77/357's < 150 yd "woods" range.

Some day, when I am somewhat diminished, that might be a very interesting rifle to have and shoot, w/ appropriate game selection.

'Till then, it's just a shiny thing I don't need.

:D




GR
 
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Case capacity is one thing. Efficiency, low drag and high SD is another. The .270 is a relatively large, but inefficient case with high drag low SD projectiles. The 6.5CM is an efficient case with low drag and high SD projectiles. That why even though it's got a smaller case and drives projectiles a little slower, it's not much slower and in practice is better on larger game.

I'd be the last to argue that everyone needs a bigger case. But for the case size you're looking at, it makes sense to pick an efficient case in a caliber with high-SD and BC projectiles. That way you get more terminal effect on the animals farther away for the same recoil, weight, and required action size. That's where many older cartridges fall short - they give you less capability and more of everything you don't want.

What, exactly, are you trying to accomplish inside of 300, and at the outside 400 yards... w/ higher BC in the game fields?

For hunting bullets, the BC's are very similar.

As for SD? The .277/150 gr. (0.279) - has ~ the same SD as the .264/140 gr. (0.287), the .284/160 gr. (0.283), and the .308/180 gr. (0.271)

(And according to some knowledgeable hunters, the .277/150 gr. NP punches well above its weight.)


Starting 200 fps back, what are "uber" BC bullets going to give you at average hunting ranges, and what kind of performance on game?

(And, w/ the Nosler AB-LR, the .270 has a pretty decent "uber" BC bullet as well.)




GR
 
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That anemic .270 can’t hold a candle to a 7mm Remington Ultra Magnum, so I can’t fathom why anyone would ever want to own a .270win when the vastly superior 7mm RUM is on the market.

Who wants dibs on the next rung? Contender hints might be 338-378, 338 Norma, 338 Lapua, but let’s see some creativity...

Great academic argument.

For a reasonable discussion, start with what is generally offered as the minimum acceptable cartridge/energy/velocity for medium range Elk and Big Bear.

Add to that discussion the maximum recoil that the average shooter can tolerate and still maintain good marksmanship from field positions w/o flinching.

And also consider the commensurate rifle weights and Bbl lengths to achieve those energies/velocities.

There might also be some economic and availability issues that crop up as well.

Still unfathomable?




GR
 
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My deer hunting load of Reloder 22 pushes a 130 grain bullet out of my 24", .270 at 3150 and kills like lightning! However, I Iimit my shots on deer to 400 yards, cause that's the kind of hunter I am.
 
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