Why does the 6.5 Creedmoor Crowd claim the 143 ELD-X as the Bullet that Beats the .270 Winchester?

[Jason_W]

Sometimes new is fun and intersting.

Within reason, choose a round and rifle you like, shoot it a lot. Go hunting with it.

It’s now been a few years since I’ve been hunting, but I remember that most of the time, whatgun you’re carrying is the least important part of the equation.

 

[Laphroaig]

It’s just silliness

Pretty much. Most of the 150+ posts are claiming things that were never said or implied in the OP.

One shoots a slightly bigger bullet slightly faster than the other. Probably 95+% of shots an ethical hunter will ever take are 300 yards or less. I don't care how old or poorly designed one cartridge might be, I don't see how you can argue a smaller slower round is better for hunting.

If someone asked me to recommend a cartridge for mostly deer hunting with definite plans for an elk or moose trip, I probably wouldn't recommend either. If for some reason those were the only two choices, I'd have to suggest the slightly faster slightly heavier round.

 

[Llama Bob]

I don't care how old or poorly designed one cartridge might be, I don't see how you can argue a smaller slower round is better for hunting.

Then you haven't been paying attention. The thing that determines penetration is not bullet weight, but bullet sectional density. A 140gr .264 will in general penetrate deeper and thus be more effective on larger game than a 150gr .277. And a 160gr .264 (for which one good bullet is available) will radically out-penetrate a 150gr .277.

Also, the 6.5CM has a slightly lower muzzle velocity. Everyone gets this. But by the time it reaches the target, the higher BC will have typically canceled that out. It's not how fast you start, it's how fast the bullet is going when it arives that determines terminal behavior.

BC is also a factor in wind drift - the better the BC is, the less drift you will experience. Wind drift is the real limit on long range hunting.

So due to sectional density, the 6.5CM is better for big game starting at the muzzle, and the gap widens as distance increases due to better wind properties and better velocity retention.

 

[Laphroaig]

I think that I have been paying attention. Have you?

As for SD? The .277/150 gr. (0.279) - has ~ the same SD as the .264/140 gr. (0.287), the .284/160 gr. (0.283), and the .308/180 gr. (0.271)

As for .264 160 grs., the rainbow that a 6.5 Creed would create wouldn't make a very effective long range gun, at least for hunting. BTW there are .277 160's also, that can be launched faster in a .270 than the Creed. I've paid enough attention to realize that by the time the higher BC .264 takes over, is well past where anybody should be shooting with either cartridge.

So to claim that something is better because it is 1% of the time is, well, silliness.

 

[Llama Bob]

Nope, you still fail to grasp the basic facts of the matter. The .277 is constrained to low-BC short ogive bullets like the partition in weights 145gr+ because of the slow twist. For example the 150gr ABLR won't reliably stabilize in a 1:10" barrel. Meanwhile in a 1:8" twist .264 you can use effectively whatever you want.

And the 160gr Weldcore works GREAT out of a Creedmoor. You have no clue what you are talking about. The top temp-insensitive SAAMI MAP load in my 1885 is 2780 ft/s. The powder is RL-23. In a conventional sporter that load would be more like 2700 ft/s. With a .5 G1 GC bullet that's hardly a "rainbow".

The 6.5CM keeps winning, and the .270 fans keep proving they don't understand ballistics

 

[TN Outlaw]

Double Tap's loading of 160gr NP's seem to stabilize just fine in my Wby Vanguard series2 24" bbl. I was surprised but they shoot very well and cut what appears to be perfectly round holes through paper at 100yds.

A .277" 160gr NP with a mv of approximately 2900fps should be deadly enough for my hunting.

Im sure the 180gr Woodleigh Weldcores are too much bullet for my 1:10 twist but the option is there to try. I never wouldve dreamed the 160gr bullets would have done so well if I'd only went by what I read on the net.

 

[Llama Bob]

Double Tap's loading of 160gr NP's seem to stabilize just fine in my Wby Vanguard series2 24" bbl. I was surprised but they shoot very well and cut what appears to be perfectly round holes through paper at 100yds.

You need to be a little careful with this thinking. Loads with a Miller stability between 1.0 and 1.5 will appear stable, but none the less wobble in fllght and have their effective BC reduced due to additional drag from the wobble. They may also be stable at your testing atmospheric conditions, but become unstable when hunted in colder temps.

There's a Miller stability calculator on the Berger website that you can use to figure out where you're at, and what would happen if the weather or elevation changed. I like to see a stability factor of about 1.7 at sealevel and 0 degrees F - that's enough to convince me that I'll be OK in essentially any atmospheric conditions.

 

[Llama Bob]

I also will note that the 160gr .277 partition has a lower BC than the 150gr. It looks like they had to shorten the ogive and blunt the nose to get it to stabilize. So it may be OK in terms of function, but it's very limited on the BC front compared to what can be done in .264. They basically had to half turn it into a round nose to get it to work.

The 180gr .277 Weldcore would be great, but you're right that it's no good in a 1:10". I don't think even the Weatherby case gets you enough velocity to get there, and certainly not in the cold.

 

[TN Outlaw]

Good info, I will add my Wby Vanguard is a .270 Win, not a .270Wby and my shots seldom exceed 200-300yds so I doubt the need for a super high BC round in my case. If I was long range hunting I would focus more on low drag and wind deflection for sure. This year my farthest shot was 218yds. (with a 6.5CM btw)

Sometime before deer season I will shoot the rifle at 200yds with the 160gr NP to see if there's any change when i double the yardage. It was pretty cold (for Tennessee) last year when I tried them at 100yds. So far so good.

 

[rbernie]

The thing that determines penetration is not bullet weight, but bullet sectional density. A 140gr .264 will in general penetrate deeper and thus be more effective on larger game than a 150gr .277. And a 160gr .264 (for which one good bullet is available) will radically out-penetrate a 150gr .277.

Not to be quarrelsome, but this is a little oversimplified - bullet construction probably plays a much greater role in penetration then does sectional density.

It -would- be reasonable to say that ‘if two bullets have a construction that makes them equal in terms of expansion rate / structural integrity at impact velocity, then the bullet with the greater sectional density will penetrate deeper’.

 

[TN Outlaw]

My phone is not letting me link this but Ron Spoomer did a good comparison of these two rounds that I read a while back.

It's under Ron Spoomer Outdoors "6.5 Creedmoor vs 270 Winchester"

Im sorry, but the only way I can show it is with screen shots. It's with a 143gr .264 ELD-X vs a 145gr .277 ELD-X.

 

[Llama Bob]

Not to be quarrelsome, but this is a little oversimplified - bullet construction probably plays a much greater role in penetration then does sectional density.

It -would- be reasonable to say that ‘if two bullets have a construction that makes them equal in terms of expansion rate / structural integrity at impact velocity, then the bullet with the greater sectional density will penetrate deeper’.

I agree with that. It's also worth noting that the best of the heavy .264 hunting bullets (the Weldcore) has much better construction than the most often cited .277 competition (the 150gr Partition). It retains almost 100% of weight vs. more like 75% for the partition and expansion is similar. There's really no question you'd rather shoot an elk with the Weldcore.

 

[Llama Bob]

And of course it's all about wind. Drop is a non-issue with modern equipment. The real limit on how far you can ethically shoot game is wind deflection and minimum bullet impact velocity.

 

[Varminterror]

Zombie thread makes it 10hours - which is some kind of record! - but this thing is still open after over 5 days?

The whole thing is a constructed argument - the OP established the narrative just to help him argue with himself, and we’ve fallen for it. Nobody really considers the 270 as a stellar long range elk rifle, at short range, either is more than ample, and anyone ignorant enough to think 50% more powder in a case SHOULDN’T be more powerful kinda deserves what they get. Sure, it’s disappointing to think an entire generation of hunters got suckered into thinking they needed 55-60grn of powder to do a 40grn job, but hey, we’ve come a long way in these decades. I’ve never thought the 270 was a more effective hunting rifle than 7-08, and my buying habits reflected that - even giving up the SD - and I’ve killed a lot bigger animals than elk with a lot lesser cartridges and lesser SD’s. So the whole thing is - as I’ve said many times here - just silly. Debating paper numbers in an application where the demarcation is distinction without a difference....

Maybe that’s the real determining factor - which cartridge makes a better Zombie rifle? Gimme ball ammo, I’m going for multiples on lined up headshots!

 

[Garandimal]

You need to be a little careful with this thinking. Loads with a Miller stability between 1.0 and 1.5 will appear stable, but none the less wobble in fllght and have their effective BC reduced due to additional drag from the wobble. They may also be stable at your testing atmospheric conditions, but become unstable when hunted in colder temps.

There's a Miller stability calculator on the Berger website that you can use to figure out where you're at, and what would happen if the weather or elevation changed. I like to see a stability factor of about 1.7 at sealevel and 0 degrees F - that's enough to convince me that I'll be OK in essentially any atmospheric conditions.

The .277/1:10 will fully stabilize a std. soft-point bullet up to ~ the length of 1.30", and a "tipped" bullet to the same length minus the tip.

The means that the 150 gr. NP (1.25"), 160 gr. NP (1.30"), 150 gr. AB (1.16 w/o tip), 150 gr. AB-LR (1.20 w/o tip), and 140 gr. TSX (1.31)... are all > 1.5 stable.

Driven at 200 fps faster, with greater weight and similar SD's - they will out-perform the little 6.5's at normal hunting ranges, and both will be at paper-punching energies before they catch up.




GR

 

[Garandimal]

And of course it's all about wind. Drop is a non-issue with modern equipment. The real limit on how far you can ethically shoot game is wind deflection and minimum bullet impact velocity.

The .270/150 gr. NP and the .264/140 gr. NP? Have the same wind drift given similar loadings (factory or Hand) out to at least 500 yards.

And the .270/150 gr. AB-LR will better the .264/143 gr. ELD-X by an 1" at that same range.




GR

 

[Garandimal]

I agree with that. It's also worth noting that the best of the heavy .264 hunting bullets (the Weldcore) has much better construction than the most often cited .277 competition (the 150gr Partition). It retains almost 100% of weight vs. more like 75% for the partition and expansion is similar. There's really no question you'd rather shoot an elk with the Weldcore.

Depends on what you are asking the bullet to do.

100% weight retention, like a weldcore or mono-copper, may give stellar penetration - but not perform as well as the soft-point unless you drive it through a heavy bone or joint.

The NP, especially the heavy for caliber options that have a little more mass to spare, seem to punch above their weight - because they shed energy into the game through fragmentation of the point, yet still penetrate well because they retain a substantial core.

Hard to recover them, even when the performance is very good.




GR

 

[BigBore44]

Well I think we need to decide what we’re actually debating. Is it hunting or punching paper?

If it’s hunting, we need to limit it to what we collectively agree is the max distance we should be taking shots at game. Then do the comparisons based off that.

If it’s punching paper, then I think all bets are off.

If we want to debate both, also fine. But “Don’t cross the streams” (Ghostbusters).

Edit to add:

Are we debating the cartridges or the rifles. If it’s the cartridges, then anything the 270 or 6.5 can be loaded to ie: bullet or powder, should be allowed.

If we’re debating the rifles, do we go with “typical” factory twists or include barrels with faster twists. There has to be agreement or it’s just not going to go anywhere.

I also believe that there is more to a cartridge than just what a chart says. Real world, tried and true, actual experience for either cartridge should play a role. But that’s a topic for another thread.

 

[Llama Bob]

100% weight retention, like a weldcore or mono-copper, may give stellar penetration - but not perform as well as the soft-point unless you drive it through a heavy bone or joint.

Now you're making stuff up. The Weldcore has no requirement that you shoot through a joint. It works just fine on double lung shots as long as velocity is kept above 2000 ft/s as per Woodleigh's recommendation. Out of a Creedmoor at elk elevations that happens around 600y, so it's not exactly a big constraint.

 

[Llama Bob]

The .270/150 gr. NP and the .264/140 gr. NP? Have the same wind drift given similar loadings (factory or Hand) out to at least 500 yards.

Except there's a better bullet in the 6.5CM, thanks the faster twist. But we know you go blind and dumb whenever anyone points out basic facts like that.

The REAL practical reach on elk - the distance you can guarantee 100% hits on a 12" target with 3MPH of wind call error - is about 25y LONGER for the CM than it is for the .270 if you use the 160 Weldcore. If you use the ELD-X (which I'm not a huge fan of, but it's no worse than the partition) then it's 50y longer. Smaller, lighter gun, more range, higher SDs so better penetration, less recoil. The CM wins literally across the board for the western elk hunter. It's not close. It's not even vaguely close.

 

[Llama Bob]

The means that the 150 gr. NP (1.25"), 160 gr. NP (1.30"), 150 gr. AB (1.16 w/o tip), 150 gr. AB-LR (1.20 w/o tip), and 140 gr. TSX (1.31)... are all > 1.5 stable.

Incorrect. Hornady recommends a 1:9 twist for the ABLR due to lack of stability in a 1:10. It's fair weather stable - great until you go out and it's snowing.

The fantasies of .270 owners are fun and all, but they're clearly deprived of FACTS.

 

[Garandimal]

Incorrect. Hornady recommends a 1:9 twist for the ABLR due to lack of stability in a 1:10. It's fair weather stable - great until you go out and it's snowing.

The fantasies of .270 owners are fun and all, but they're clearly deprived of FACTS.

Missed your link to Hornady.

As stated, the .277/150 gr. AB-LR is only 1.20" w/o the tip, which, according to Berger Stability Analyzer, gives it a SG =

 

[Art Eatman]

Seven pages = lotsa backing and forthing but not much new and helpful.