Why even have a safe at all? Or just carry insurance?
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dragon813gt
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Who makes the bed? Most of the furniture like that costs a good bit of money. I was looking at the mirrors from TacticalWalls. No, they aren't a safe. But if you don't tell anyone it provides a secure place w/ quick access to a rifle.
Googled bed safe. The picture above was the first picture to show up.
https://www.safetysecurity.co/product/queen-bed-bunker/
The one in the picture seems to be $4,499.00-$7,299.00.
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Sour Kraut
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In addition to benefits already mentioned:
There can be tax benefits to purchasing a safe if you store tax records in it. Check with your tax advisor (for legal advice on this)because you may be able to deduct the purchase price over a 10 year period if you itemize deductions.
There can be tax benefits to purchasing a safe if you store tax records in it. Check with your tax advisor (for legal advice on this)because you may be able to deduct the purchase price over a 10 year period if you itemize deductions.
Now that's a great idea! Is ANYONE out there a tax attorney or accountant who could advise on this? Either deducting over 10 years or outright writing it off in its entirety in the year of purchase? I have not purchased a safe yet but am leaning towards a Sturdy. I did renew NRA insurance and that one was painful!
OilyPablo
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I would think if it was a legitimate business expense. In WA no sales tax on gun safes.
That exists!
My pick for ultimate apartment safe is the AmSec BF, and they have a model that is something like 40x20x20. Built with more armor than the larger model BF Gun Safe lineup and carrying a UL fire rating (versus a third party), the safe provides protection from hand tool attacks that a bare bones RSC cannot survive.
The safe carries the RSC rating, but it is built with more than twice the steel than what the minimum RSC construction requirements mandate. I've seen two fire outcomes and was very pleased with what I saw. I prefer a poured material over other common fire resistant designs, but it does come at a somewhat higher price than something like fireboard.
AmSec's poured concrete for this model provides very good fire protection, but it is less dense than a high-security safe's pour, and so the overall weight is lower, benefitting mobility. All-in-all, I think it's a good compromise of price vs performance vs practicality. It's also a nice pick for a decent bedroom/upstairs safe to complement a heavier safe on ground floor, in my opinion.
Gardall and Adesco/FireKing also make RSCs in that size, and FireKing used to also make (and may still make) B-rate and C-rate models. Sturdy would probably also build something in that smaller size with a 3/16th inch body.
Lostdiver71
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Actually an experienced thief will be in that safe in less than 5 minutes!
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goldpelican
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Because at some stage there's going to be kids in your house. Whether it's your own, grandkids, or an unexpected friend / relative dropping by with young ones in tow, you cannot watch them all the time, and they are inquisitive to the point of criminal trespass. As a parent my biggest fear is the sound of an unexpected shot in the house.
Be a responsible firearm owner. Keep them away from kids, and keep the kids safe. Kids are statistically far more likely to die from an unsecured gun than be saved by it.
Your well behaved and trustworthy friends have friends and acquaintances that may not be the responsible young people you've raised. The same goes for your friends and family and their children. This applies to anyone you welcome into your home. If you own firearms then you have an obligation to secure them against mischief or theft.
Does that mean a safe, real safe, not RSC? Perhaps not, but at some point a safe is the most practical way to secure a certain number of firearms followed by a vault. How much you invest in how you secure firearms depends upon the value of them and how responsible you feel you are for them.
Does that mean a safe, real safe, not RSC? Perhaps not, but at some point a safe is the most practical way to secure a certain number of firearms followed by a vault. How much you invest in how you secure firearms depends upon the value of them and how responsible you feel you are for them.
a1abdj
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There is no deduction for an individual buying a safe to store tax records. If you are a business the safe could be an ordinary business expense regardless of what you store within. There are a few exceptions for individuals being able to deduct a safe, one of which is being a police officer.
I Googled bed safe and the intelligent search engine completion feature changed it to this...how does Mr. Google think this is going to protect my firearms?
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Kevin Rohrer
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Good safe; no insurance. The latter is a waste of money.
grampajack
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Apartment living is rough. The last time I lived in an apartment I only had three or four guns, so I wasn't really worried about anyone stealing them, at least no more so than my other stuff. But as someone who lived on the upper levels, and as someone who has had the misfortune of moving a large gun safe, I feel very sorry for anyone who lives in an apartment with a large gun collection.
I think the weight is a valid concern. I've been told not to put a large safe on a second story without heavily reinforcing the floor. Once you get all your guns inside, especially if ammo and precious metals are involved, you can easily create a major safety hazard. I can just imagine how your super would react if the people below you suddenly found a gun safe in their living room...or worse.
That bed safe looks pretty legit. Top it with a swedish foam mattress and you're in business! Somehow I also like the concept of sleeping on top of all my guns. It gives me the warm fuzzies big time!
I think the weight is a valid concern. I've been told not to put a large safe on a second story without heavily reinforcing the floor. Once you get all your guns inside, especially if ammo and precious metals are involved, you can easily create a major safety hazard. I can just imagine how your super would react if the people below you suddenly found a gun safe in their living room...or worse.
That bed safe looks pretty legit. Top it with a swedish foam mattress and you're in business! Somehow I also like the concept of sleeping on top of all my guns. It gives me the warm fuzzies big time!
DocUSMCRetired
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If you are on the second floor, a gun safe could be a real hazard. Depending on size, weight, and location. Their is another option, that I did when I lived in an apartment.
I modified one closet to be a safe. Replaced the door with a solid framed door, replaced the door frame, reinforced/armored the frame, and then put in a digital lock with an alarm. A certain amount of force would set the alarm off. Then you just get an actual alarm system installed in the apartment. You can do your own alarm system install in this day and age. If you are worried about someone punching through a wall, then you can use cement board on that particular wall.
In the end, just making it harder, and giving them less time (an alarm) might be enough to keep them safe.
I modified one closet to be a safe. Replaced the door with a solid framed door, replaced the door frame, reinforced/armored the frame, and then put in a digital lock with an alarm. A certain amount of force would set the alarm off. Then you just get an actual alarm system installed in the apartment. You can do your own alarm system install in this day and age. If you are worried about someone punching through a wall, then you can use cement board on that particular wall.
In the end, just making it harder, and giving them less time (an alarm) might be enough to keep them safe.
grampajack
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There's also a booby trap that you can put inside your safe that will explode a massive amount of pepper spray. I can't remember what it's called, but I saw it in the gun magazines lately. Also helps if you have pesky roommates who won't stop raiding your beer.
Please explain further? It appears, at the very least, that safes don't provide the fire protection one might expect them to!
OilyPablo
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And firearm insurance isn't all that expensive either.
RetiredUSNChief
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Well...since joining THR, I've learned a lot, and one of the little tidbits of information I've learned is that what you or I think of as a "safe" may not really be a safe. And the fire ratings assigned may not be what we think they are.
Somewhere around here are some safe threads with some very knowledgeable people on the subject. One of those people is a1abdj, who is a locksmith and safe/valut expert. CB900F also does safe work.
Do an advanced search for "gun safe fire rating" postings by a1abdj or CB900F. I know some of the threads I've read through have dealt with fire ratings.
Essentially, if you want to have a decent fire rating, look for something that is actually UL rated as such. The UL tests are standardized tests, which means you at least know the standards by which the rating is assigned.
Unfortunately, according to a1abdj in this link below, there are no gun safes which carry a UL fire rating. This is not saying there aren't any which won't pass the UL test...just none on the market which actually carry the UL rating. See post #2 in this link:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=610713&highlight=gun+safe+fire+rating
A safe can provide no fire protection, fire protection without any rating, fire protection with an "in-house" rating the Maker assigns to their own product, fire protection with a 3rd party rating, and fire protection with a UL rating.
With a UL-rated safe with fire protection that is in proper working order and has correctly been installed, you can count on that safe to provide at least the amount of protection it is rated for as these tests try to mimic "the worst case scenarios". In a fire-fire, should the temperature exceed the test temp, or the duration exceeds the test duration, this can affect how well the safe will protect the contents. However, that does not mean the safe will necessarily fail catastrophically. This thread, posted by a1abdj, shows a quality safe that protected the contents for several times the period of the rated duration.
This is what I consider in regards to fire rating:
- Who did the testing? (for example, the UL)
- How long is the test duration? (in minutes)
- How hot was the test temperature? (in degrees)
- Is the class or rating type appropriate to protect what I am putting inside it?*
- With consideration to the above, do the specs meet or exceed the fire protection I want?
*The UL has different fire classes and fire ratings. For example, a UL-350 rating implies that the internal temp of the safe does NOT rise above 350F through the duration of the test. This 350F temp is intended to be well below the point where paper can auto-ignite and slightly below where most distortion occurs. However, some items can be damaged if they are heat sensitive. UL-125/150 safes are used for storing electronic items that would not survive even half of the 350F internal cutoff of a UL-350, and both weight and costs can be prohibitive. If someone has a UL-350 safe and wants to increase protection for more delicate/temp-sensitive items, this is a low-cost alternative that will provide some additional protection and this product has been tested by the UL and passed. The UL can also test for things like impact-while-hot (to simulate a safe falling through a weakened floor during a fire), or explosion-while-hot/during-impact.
For what it's worth, the rating I like is the UL-350 @1700F for 1 hour. The temp is higher than what most house fires are, and the duration is much greater than the expected response time. Additionally, I like how there are several safes with this rating that are not ridiculously heavy and not ridiculously priced.
I was under the impression that Sturdy is moving towards UL ratings in the future?
They likely omit RSC testing because it won't tell their customers anything they don't already know, and the rating could have less insurance value than a tool rating. Sturdy's baseline models are built well beyond what the minimum standards are to qualify for the RSC testing, and their upgraded models can do B-rate, C-rate, and beyond. Unfortunately, there is not a good category between RSC and TL-15, because B-rate and C-rate apply to relatively loose specifications (no one maintains a specific standard, and there are no attack tests to qualify such safes.) I would love to see some type of intermediate category.
The value of the RSC has some other limitations. RSC has occasionally been referred to as TL-5, but this isn't the best term because the RSC attack test uses one man with LIGHT hand tools, where as the TL-15/30 tests involve a two-man team with powered tools and specialty drilling/cutting bits designed to defeat heavily armored safes. With the RSC test, the max weight of hand tools is something like 3 pounds, and I am not sure if the 5-minute test is net tool time or gross time. With TL-rated safes, the number refers to the net tool times...so when changing out tools, examining the attack, or reviewing the building specs of the safe (which the Maker must provide), this is not counted and so a TL-15 test can take several hours. Where as the tool resistant tests are intended to mimic the worst case scenario, the RSC mimics more of a best-case scenario.
A smaller company also may face testing prices that are extremely high. IIRC, UL procedure requires not just a single specimen from the Maker, but one or two additional specimens that the UL can randomly pull from the production line and then test. I believe this applies to BOTH Standard 72 (fire), and 687 (burglary.) However, I am not sure if it applies to RSCs as they use a different standard.
I believe Sturdy is in the middle of that security ratings gap, and that sweet spot of protection + value + quality gives owners options for something greater than a typical gun safe without going to high-security. Sturdy products are oriented more towards the burglary side of the scale, and while the lack of an independent fire rating doesn't mean the safe will necessarily fail to protect the contents in fires, it does mean the outcome is more uncertain. As they continue to grow and testing becomes more financially viable, independent fire ratings could help them grow their brand even further. And as my knowledge in this area is so/so, for what it is worth I also believe that Sturdy is capable of building a safe with a poured composite fire/burglary barrier and delivering it at an affordable price.
Some of my specs might be a bit off, so I apologize if they are.
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