Why has no one built a modern Tokerov?

[krupparms]

Some of the old classics like the 1911s & PP s, ect. have been copied and made more modern! The Tokarevs are flat, accurate & very reliable! It has been made in 9×19mm along with its original caliber. But could handel other more popular rounds out. This pistol could be made with a much better safety than we have seen so far. The Yugo system seems to be the best so far. This would make a nice flat reliable compact pocket piece! This design has alot going for it. With a little work, you could have a very reliable pocket gun! Just a thought!

 

[PabloJ]

Please Google Zastava M88.

 

[gripper]

I, for one; would LOVE a modern( steel or polymer framed)7.62x25 mm with a double stack mag and a 5-6 inch barrel...IIRC, CZ was possibly considering it.
Also, a convertible (9x18,9x19,7.62 x25 mm) Stechkin clone ( semi auto only) would definitely be on my " take my money already!"list.

 

[PabloJ]

I, for one; would LOVE a modern( steel or polymer framed)7.62x25 mm with a double stack mag and a 5-6 inch barrel...IIRC, CZ was possibly considering it.
Also, a convertible (9x18,9x19,7.62 x25 mm) Stechkin clone ( semi auto only) would definitely be on my " take my money already!"list.

The Chinese made double stack version in caliber 9x19.

 

[gripper]

I know, Pablo... But if someone would build what I suggested, in the 7.62 Tokarev.. .think of the possibilities. As well as stimulating DOMESTIC production of good quality ammo in that caliber.

 

[krupparms]

Thanks Paboj! That's something I had not seen or heard about! Love it, that M88A looks like something I would like! 9rd.s of 9×19mm . A 3.75 "blr. And what looks to be a decent safety! Finally a nice compact Tokarev! At around $250, I might just like that! Thanks again! Anyone shot this gun or own one? Like to know how you feel about it?

 

[Brin]

Please Google Zastave PPZ.

 

[barnbwt]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zastava_PPZ
The 7.62x25 PPZ is mere rumour, even according to Wikipedia, for cryin' out loud. While I think the world aches for a modern tok double stack, I doubt Zastava would design its grip to be so long that it could accommodate the round; that'd simply piss off too many customers that can already barely tolerate a 45acp gun.

Besides, we'd probably find our spam cans of x25 codified as "armor piercing" by the ATF if a practical pistol came out for it (not-so-subtle dig at the politically-motivated reclassification of 7n6)

TCB

 

[krupparms]

I looked at the PPZ, it looked like a nice concept for a PDW! But at this point it did not look like much more than that. A concept. I do like the idea of a flat compact, reliable & accurate pistol. The Tokarevs are already all that, but compact. The M88A seems to deal with that & looks like a decent safety. I have found Tokarevs to be fairly easy to conceal already. But taking off some slide / barrel can only help. Might make a good BUG.

 

[Monac]

Some of the old classics like the 1911s & PP s, ect. have been copied and made more modern! The Tokarevs are flat, accurate & very reliable! It has been made in 9×19mm along with its original caliber. But could handel other more popular rounds out. This pistol could be made with a much better safety than we have seen so far. The Yugo system seems to be the best so far. This would make a nice flat reliable compact pocket piece! This design has alot going for it. With a little work, you could have a very reliable pocket gun! Just a thought!

I don't understand this. The Tokarev is not a pocket pistol in any way, shape, or form. If what you want is a pocket pistol in 9x19, then you don't want a Tokarev, you want one of the many modern pistols designed in the last 20 years.

The Tokarev was a 1930's revision of the 1911 design. The French did the same thing with their Model 1935A and 1935S pistols, and so did the Poles with their Radom VIS-35. From the point of view of an actual fighting weapon, the Poles made far and away the best job of it, with a pistol that handled well, shot well, was more compact than a 1911, and was chambered for a useful cartridge, 9mm Parabellum. The French designed decent pistols for a useless cartridge, the 7.65mm French Long.

All the Russians apparently cared about was ease of manufacture. To make the Tokarev a decent pistol to carry and use, you have to reverse a lot of the modifications the Russians made, like adding a safety, improving the grip shape, making the firing pin inertial instead of full-reach, and so on. Then you haven't really got a Tokarev any more.

Remember, the US Army used 1911 for 80+ years. The Russians began replacing the Tokarevs in the late 1940's, after less than 20 years. Enough said.

As for a modern pocket version based on the 1911 design...didn't Star of Spain already do that starting about 40 years ago, with the PD and BKM? And then progressing to the Firestar in 9mm and 40 cal? What am I missing here?

 

[krupparms]

Monoc : The Tokarev is a very reliable and reasonably accurate pistol. It is flat & easy to use. Yes there are better pistols out there. But some of us older shooters like shooting older designs. Especially when they are updated & the price is right! The Tokarev is one of my favorite pistols! Thought a compact model would be better & I guess Zastava thought so also & made some! Since they sell for under $300, are a good reliable design & are made by a good company. Well I guess it's just a old shooters thing. Try it sometime! You never know what you will find.

 

[amd6547]

I would feel quite well armed if all I owned was my Tokarev. It is accurate and can reach out to 100yds easily. It's reliable, completely.
And I doubt there is any other 5"barrel full sized all steel pistol that is as easy to carry as the Tok.

 

[tark]

I just bought a Zastave Tokarev in 9MM. It is well finished and polished, actually quite tight, the trigger pull , not bad. It shoots as well as my Auto-Ordinance 1911 and it came with an extra mag. All for 300 bucks plus tax.

What's not to like?

 

[9 fingers]

I bought an M88a a couple of months ago and like it allot. Very crude inside, like they did not bother finishing it at all. But a little stoning and work with 1,000 grit paper and it works quite well. The trigger was very rough and probably 8 or 9lbs (tigger pull guage on order). I used some Dupont auto polish (fine grit) in the hammer/sear and worked the trigger a couple hundred times and then blasted it out with Brake Cleaner and then soaked it in CLP and it is much better. Still about 8 or 9 lbs though unless I choose to disconnect the mag safety (will not fire with mag removed) and that supposedly brings it down a few pounds. Nice gun, very accurate, and cheap! Here are some pics to get size perspective with CZ 75b and CZ 83.
9 fingers

 

[krupparms]

Wow! Thanks for the pictures! They were great & showed the size well! Now I want one for sure. That is a more positive looking safety than most of the other designs I have seen. And they maintained that flat profile. Nice looking gun. How accurate & reliable is it? Will it handle JHP? Would appreciate any information you could give! Thanks again!

 

[Big Shrek]

Downside of the tok's 7.62x25 mm cartridge is that it is 25mm long

Wouldn't mind seeing a Glock in it, just to see a double stack

NOTE: don't measure using wadcutters...these are evidently shorter...duh!

 

[Havok7416]

Downside of the tok's 7.62x25 mm cartridge is that it is 2mm longer than 10mm,
which the 10mm is too long for many people already...
Wouldn't mind seeing a Glock in it, just to see a double stack

Both cartridges are x25mm. Bullet depth can of course be changed.

 

[9 fingers]

krupparms, you are welcome, happy to help. I am no great shot but last week when I shot it at my crude uphill range in my yard I was getting 4 shot groups in the 1.5 to 1.75 inch range and one flyer, no doubt my error, with various FMJ ammo, at 25' and standing. I tried 6 types in the 115 to 124 gr range and they were all good. I have not shot any HP. Out of the very first mag I had one FTE that almost made it out of the gun, stuck sticking straight up and held by the rim. After that had maybe one FTE per 30 and the last 50 were clean. So, part of being rough inside and just needing some shooting. As I said, I like it allot, more than I expected to, and for $240 it was well worth it. Just be prepared to clean it up, blast it out with Brake Clean and give it a good lube, all things I enjoy doing anyway. Also, the front site on mine was a bit tall and it was shooting 2" low at 25 feet. So I filed it down till it was just right and hit it with some Oxpho Blue and now it is perfect. Yours may not need this but thought you should know.
9 fingers

 

[krupparms]

9 fingers Thanks for the pictures & information! The information you gave is appreciated! I looked this pistol up ( had a friend w/ laptop) . All the reviews I read said pistol was rough inside! But it seems to clean up ok. At that price it seems like a good buy. Thanks again for those nice pictures & information! I hope CZ cleans up these pistols as they have their other guns . These are a nice step in the Tokarevs development. Enjoy that gun!

 

[9 fingers]

They are not made by CZ but by Zastava, a Serbian manufacturer that does use BRNO machinery and the same steel formulation as BRNO used to use. As my gunsmith told me, the Tokorevs are not meant to be things of beauty (although the M88a is quite attractive to me) nor are they meant to be target guns. They are made to last forever and be effective at killing. I don't expect to do any of the later but if it shoots well and lasts a long time and is cheap, what is not to like?
9 fingers

 

[wally]

It's reliable, completely.

Nothing really out of the ordinary for a decent quality pistol. After about 6 cans of surplus 7.62x25 through my Romanian Tokarev I've had two parts breakages. Interestingly neither caused an immediate stoppage and was only noticed during the after shooting corrosive ammo clean-up -- which is about as good as you could hope for.

Firing pin broke, but it continued to shoot, replacement was hard to find, I ended up making a two piece hybrid from the rear half of the original and the front half of the incorrect (too short) replacement.

Second issue was rear ear on the trigger assembly broke off. Bit pricey to replace.

I always say:
"If you've never broken a gun, you just ain't been shooting enough!"

 

[BCRider]

In either 7.62x25 or 9mm I'd love to see a modern rendition of the Tokarev design.

A FEW changes would make it a nicer to use pistol;

• Keep the frame stock but provide larger and extended length grips and longer 10 round capacity magazines. The slightly bigger and longer extended grips will allow easier use with modern two hand shooting styles. Especially for those of us with bigger hands.
• The longer grips would be coupled with the use of the longer 10 round magazines to make loading and unloading the magazines easier. The new extended grips could act like a mag well.
• Give the gun a USEABLE AND WELL PLACED safety. The afterthought options I've seen are pretty much a waste of metal. They are awkward as hell to use and in one case the safety rubbed against my thumb when useing a two hand hold. As a result the gun's recoil would engage the safety after a couple of shots. Not to mention wearing a blister in my thumb.

Other than these two things and options for different sights the Tokarev IS a slim and compact gun compared to many other options.

In particular I love the lift out action. Makes cleaning the gun truly a breeze. It really is a well thought out design that deserves another chance to live on in a more useable modern version.

The lack of a proper safety kills the gun for use in most competitions. Unless the shooter is willing to live with racking the slide or cocking the hammer as part of the pushout. To safely holster it while cocked and locked and shoot it effectively it really needs a good safety.

The longer magazine and longer and deeper grips are not that big a deal. They'd fit on the existing gun just fine using either the original style rotating retainer clips or perhaps a change over to 1911 style threaded bushings.

The Zastava looks really close to a great option. But I'd like that 10 round magazine. Or at least up it to 9.

 

[9 fingers]

The full size Zastava M70a does have a safety and is on sale for $200 at JG Sales, which is mighty tempting.
9 fingers
http://www.jgsales.com/cai-zastava-tokarev-m70a-semi-auto-pistol,-9mm,-new.-p-59547.html

 

[Big Shrek]

Yep, you are correct, cause when I measured it, I came up short
Whoda thunk wadcutters would be shorter?? Guess something has to move to be so fat...lol

 

[krupparms]

The Full Size Zastava 70a, seem to have a better safety & have a 9rd.magazine. Fingers you were right CZ isn't the same as Zastava! My mistake. I saw the M70a while looking for the M88a. The M70a seems to be a nice gun & will hold 9+1rd.s. At that price they are a good piece of history that makes a fine shooter as well! The Norinco that I use is leftover from when you could get them for $110. I stuck a number of them back & gave two of my kids one, and 3 to grandsons. They were all taught to shoot & looked forward to finally get one. Tokarevs still work fine as shooters & keeping the skills sharp and alive! Have fun shooting your Tokarev! Their are those that put down these old designs. However, at this price the M70a is a BARGAIN! For those on a limited budget, the 9×19mm is a good SD & HD gun! These guns are a combat proven design! Reliable, accurate & easy to maintain, this is a GOOD BUY! If your budget is tight this may be something you can afford as a budget gun.