Why hasn't the Hi Power gone the way of the 1911?

[Officers'Wife]

I don't believe the Hi Power has the recognition in the US that the 1911 does. Anybody that has watched a war movie knows what a 1911 looks like and that recognition equates to demand which in turn makes it profitable to supply. The HP doesn't have that demand from lack of advertising. Quite frankly, I'd never seen one until Hubby brought his home and I spent most of my formative years being dragged to one firing range or another. You want to see them cloned? Get Matt Damon to use one in one of his movies.

(Please note the last sentence was sarcasm.)

 

[wow6599]

I don't believe the Hi Power has the recognition in the US that the 1911 does. Anybody that has watched a war movie knows what a 1911 looks like and that recognition equates to demand which in turn makes it profitable to supply. The HP doesn't have that demand from lack of advertising. Quite frankly, I'd never seen one until Hubby brought his home and I spent most of my formative years being dragged to one firing range or another. You want to see them cloned? Get Matt Damon to use one in one of his movies.

It's been in a couple of movies.......

(Indiana Jones, James Bond, etc.)

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Browning_Hi-Power

 

[Sergei Mosin]

How I wish Stephen Camp were still here to contribute to this discussion.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/

 

[WVsig]

It's been in a couple of movies.......

(Indiana Jones, James Bond, etc.)

My favorite The Usual Suspects

 

[Husker_Fan]

I love both, but actually prefer the hi-power. It fits my hands perfectly. The 1911 has had some advantages.

The 1911 is generally in .45, which Americans love.
The 1911 was an issued sidearm, so anyone who was pictures of soldiers up through the first Gulf War saw 1911's on the sides of America's fighting men.
The Clinton era gun ban limited magazines to 10 rounds. That means a 9mm with a neutered magazine vs. standard 1911.

 

[WVsig]

The Clinton era gun ban limited magazines to 10 rounds. That means a 9mm with a neutered magazine vs. standard 1911.

This is a great point. For years when one was limited to 10 the mindset was mine as well make those 45 ACP vs 9mm.

Capacity was not king.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I'd bet that most of the people who saw a Hi-Power in a movie probably thought it was a 1911.

 

[pendennis]

There are times for every machine. The Browning Hi Power came along as a military weapon, but didn't have the American provenance of the 1911. The 9mm wasn't considered a man stopper, like the .45 ACP. After WWII, it was fairly easy to obtain surplus 1911's. Not so with Hi Powers.

There were also huge amounts of surplus .45 ACP ammunition. Not so with 9mm.

The 1911 is very simple in design, and it lends itself to modifications that vastly improve the original design. There isn't a single component in the gun which hasn't been improved, and updated. Not so with the Hi Power.

The Hi Power has always been seen as a "European" gun. It has never had the market penetration of the 1911. Browning Firearms never had enough volume to overcome Colt in the handgun business.

I've shot a number of Hi Powers, and I own two in .40 S&W. I love the design, and for a "double stack" design, it fits my hand far better than Beretta, Sig, or others.

However, I can readily understand Browning's desire to let the Hi Power die. With all the other 9mm pistols out there, the Hi Power just doesn't have the "legs" to compete with them.

The Hi Power is going to be one of those designs, like the original Winchester Model 70, and the Colt Woodsman. It will be nostalgic, but for the most part, impractical.

 

[Onmilo]

Ray Liotta uses a High Power in nearly every movie that he has to use a gun,,,,

 

[mljdeckard]

I also agree that the '94 awb played a large role in the current popularity of 1911s.

 

[wow6599]

The Hi Power has always been seen as a "European" gun.

I disagree. If the U.S. had switched from the 1911 after WWI, and went to the BHP for WWII, where would the 1911 be right now?

Just because The Greatest Generation was issued the 1911 in WWII, and US serviceman until the mid 80's, doesn't mean the HP is a European firearm.

Imagine 11 + million G.I.'s returning with experience on a BHP instead of the 1911. KInd of like the still popular .30-'06.....it's what has been passed down.

And for the record, I love 1911's, Hi-Powers and my favorite rifle cartridge is the .30-'06 (my grandfather has something to do with that......he served in Germany during WWII).

 

[bannockburn]

For me the Hi-Power has been the perfect size and fit in a double stack magazine design in a 9mm. First one I had (ring hammer made in 1966), was beautifully made and with a gorgeous polished blue finish but had like a 15 lb. trigger pull, miniscule sights, and a tiny safety that was nearly impossible to use. Accuracy was minute of side of barn.

My current one, a Mk.II, looks much more military issue with its matte parkerized finish but features an outstanding trigger (right out of the box), sights that are actually easy to see and get onto target, and an ambi safety that is a joy to operate.

Bottom line for me with the Hi-Power is that with a few improvements in key areas of the gun, it now works function-wise as good as it feels.

 

[YZ]

The ban was on sales not ownership. Previously purchased hi cap mags were grandfathered. I had my 17 rounders. The limit wasn't a game changer for HP ownership. I think it had been outgunned already, and existed as a vintage pistol for the fans and enthusiasts.

 

[mljdeckard]

But the ban was the timeframe that really brought the economic brands, especially Kimber into the spotlight. Yes, theree was a big pool of hi-caps in the market already, but it wasn't as apparent at the beginning of the ban that it would lapse. A lot of shooters (myself included) started to get a bad taste in our mouths when we would buy a Glock and then have to scrounge around for standard-capacity mags. This combined with a lot of new economical options for 1911s (and a lot of magazine covers with them) opened a lot of eyes to 1911s.

 

[dogtown tom]

wow6599

Quote:
The Hi Power has always been seen as a "European" gun.

I disagree. If the U.S. had switched from the 1911 after WWI, and went to the BHP for WWII, where would the 1911 be right now?

Moot point, since 1. The Hi Power didn't arrive until sixteen years AFTER WWI ended and 2. asking "what ifs" doesn't change the fact that the HP is seen as a "European" gun.

Just because The Greatest Generation was issued the 1911 in WWII, and US serviceman until the mid 80's, doesn't mean the HP is a European firearm.

No, the fact that the Hi Power was built in Belgium by Fabrique National means its a European firearm.

Imagine 11 + million G.I.'s returning with experience on a BHP instead of the 1911. KInd of like the still popular .30-'06.....it's what has been passed down.

And if they had returned with Berettas they would regard them as European guns just as we do today. Even though Beretta builds M9's in Maryland doesn't make them "American" does it?

 

[Jim Watson]

If the U.S. had switched from the 1911 after WWI, and went to the BHP for WWII,

Fantasy. There was no slightest chance of the US going 9mm in the 1930s.

There was a chance of the US going 9mm in the 1950s. We had already agreed with NATO that our next service pistol would be a 9mm and trials were actually held. That led Colt to bring out the Commander and S&W the Model 39. The High Standard T3 and Colt T4 were kind of minor players. Inglis showed the Lightweight Browning but did not push it real hard.
But we had plenty of 1911s in stock and spare parts constantly on order, so it was deemed not worth the money. So we stayed with the .45 ACP and bought a lot of .38 revolvers for about the next 30 years.

I have seen one picture of the Inglis. It had an aluminum frame and large flutes in the slide to get the weight down. Durability might not have been great, but I bet it would have been a fine weapon to carry and not bad to shoot.

 

[YZ]

With all due respect - the main reason was romance, and perhaps competitive hand gunnery. The country was ready for a 1911 revival, ban or no ban. Jeff Cooper and the nostalgia felt by many in the military had helped us rediscover it. There was no such craze for the great SIG P220.

 

[Killian]

Its a numbers game... there are so many surplus BHPs in the market place already are people going to pay $500 to $600 for a nice clone or $500 to $600 for the real deal used?

Personally I buy used all day long.

There are some clones out there that can be had for $250. I think Sarco and some ads on Gunbroker have Hi Power clones going for that right now. So then the question becomes, will I buy 2 clones for the price of 1 used factory BHP? If you plan to shoot and carry the gun rather than collect it, I'd say go for the 2 guns.

 

[dogtown tom]

Jim Watson

I have seen one picture of the Inglis. It had an aluminum frame and large flutes in the slide to get the weight down. Durability might not have been great, but I bet it would have been a fine weapon to carry and not bad to shoot.

The Hi Powers that are most commonly referred to as "Inglis" aren't aluminum and didn't have flutes.

Inglis Hi Powers were steel and their tangent sighted "Chinese Contract" models looked nearly identical to those built in Belgium. Later they began building a fixed sight HP with a unique and pronounced "hump" at the rear of the slide with the rear sight. India Ordnance Factories continues to produce a copy of the Inglis at Ishapore.



AFTER WWII, the Canadians attempted to produce HP's outside of their agreement with FN and got spanked for it. The FN agreement between "the Queen" and FN to produce HP's ended when the John Inglis Co. stopped manufacture at the end of WWII.

After WWII, the Canadian Arsenals Limited built around fifty "Lightweight Hi Powers" as prototypes for possible acceptance by the Brits and others.........this didn't sit well with FN. They reminded the Canadians about the 1943 agreement and Canada ended the experiment. These lighweight models WERE aluminum and DID have flutes..........but despite their Inglis markings were not built by the John Inglis Co.

 

[Dr.Rob]

The HP has been cloned in numerous countries as the patent has long expired (unless Browning somehow has extended rights INSIDE the USA). The BHP is arguably the most common military handgun outside the iron and bamboo curtains but isn't unheard of there.

I think The BHP suffered the same fate as the 1911 in the early 80's. There were a HANDFUL of 1911 mfgs. Colt and a couple boutique makers. Browning's design had been around a LONG time and didn't shine like the new crop of so called 'wonder nines'. That included the CZ-75, the Sig 226 and even the Beretta 92. Add Glock to the mix later, and the BHP while a great design, it didn't bring anything "new" to the party.

FEG went out of business for reasons even Charles Daly hasn't been able to explain and was arguably the 2nd largest producer of HP's after FN in the past 30 years or so.

I am unsure who is importing the FM pistol.

Making all steel pistols requires some serious tooling, the former countries of Eastern Europe could produce that on the cheap in a way US companies just can't.

Those $200 FEG's were a STEAL, I know, I have one and have shot the snot out of it.

 

[1911Tuner]

With all due respect - the main reason was romance, and perhaps competitive hand gunnery. The country was ready for a 1911 revival, ban or no ban. Jeff Cooper and the nostalgia felt by many in the military had helped us rediscover it.

All due respect, the 1911 Renaissance and resurgence of interest predated Cooper's Modern Technique and the IPSC competition that it spawned. Cooper and pistol competition came along and gave it a turbo boost, but if the gun hadn't been so imminently well-suited to the task, something else would have bumped it from the top spot in short order.

There was no such craze for the great SIG P220.

*shrug*

Maybe because it wasn't all that great?

 

[YZ]

No Mr Moderator, think it was because the 1911 is a pedigreed American classic, like no other. But also competition friendly.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I love them and plan on buying. One some day.

 

[beatledog7]

Many gun makers build 1911-pattern guns. No other gun company makes what can be legitimately be called a Hi Power.

Just about every computer maker makes Windows PCs. Only Apple makes Macs.

I think I see the answer.

 

[1911Tuner]

No Mr Moderator, think it was because the 1911 is a pedigreed American classic, like no other. But also competition friendly.

Suited for competition...sure...but it's interesting and maybe a little amusing when people who don't care much for the 1911 figure that its continuing popularity must be due to nostalgia or romance...or something. Couldn't be that it's just that good for so many people when there are other, far better/superior designs they could choose from. Right?

Incidentally, I've handled a few 220s. Aside from the remarkable out of box accuracy, I wasn't overly impressed with the feel and the overall handling characteristics of the gun. Of course, that's a personal matter and not one that I'd try to force someone else to adopt. Besides...the Sig's basic function is the locked breech, short recoil operated tilting barrel just like the 1911. Aside from caliber, magazine capacity, and a little variation on the controls...there just isn't a lot of difference. There are a lot of Browning's fingerprints on that Sig.

On the nostalgia/romance aspect...I'm hopelessly in love with the Colt 1873 SAA...but on a more practical scale, I'd opt for a Ruger Blackhawk if I had to pick one single-action revolver to do me for life.

If I had my pick of self-loading pistols for the same duty, I'm afraid it would have to be a 1911...and nostalgia has nothing to do with it.