Why hate Freedom Group?

[yzguy87]

I have been reading some posts lately where people have been putting down Freedom Group in general. From various reports I have read (I have no first hand experience) that the new Marlins are not up to par with the quality that they were when independently owned, but other than that I've heard no major complaints of Remington, Bushmaster, or DPMS' quality suffering since their acquisition. I know some people like to brand bash for various reasons but why all the hate for Freedom Group in general? I've googled them to see if they may have done something to go against the rtkba but from what I've seen is that the businesses owned by Freedom Group were on our side during the political fiasco. And I don't think Freedom Group said anything detrimental to our rights either. I know Cerberus Capital has put their share of Freedom group for sale since Sandy Hook but that's the extent of my knowledge. So why all the hate?

 

[Shadow 7D]

It's about money, not about better guns, not about history, not about quality
you don't have 'gun' people in charge
you have money managers, corporate raiders etc. who will, have and continue to do the expedient things, like the S&W 'clinton' agreement, which cost that group, and ended with S&W being sold for a substantial LOSS

 

[pyro073]

Long time lurker here, thought I would chime in...

I have seen the quality on Remington and Bushmaster go down hill hard since they got picked up. Now, I will add that in the past 2 years or 2 it has been getting better, it still isn't up to past standards though.

As for Bushmaster, the fit and finish when you compare the new ones to the old Windham made ones is nowhere near as good.

With Remington I can only speak from experience with their shotguns. I have an old (1970's) Remington Wingmaster 870 and I had a newer post buy out 870. The finish on the newer one was no where near as high quality as the old one. It also wasn't as smooth either and just didn't feel as high of quality.

 

[frankenstein406]

They ruined marlin, remington is also going down hill. They only care about money not quality, and remington is staying in new york cause of $ contract.

 

[mdauben]

but other than that I've heard no major complaints of Remington, Bushmaster, or DPMS' quality suffering since their acquisition.

I've heard a number of complaints on post-aquisition products from all three companies. Not as many or as strident as the Marlin complaints, but they are there. Just to be fair, I have no 1st hand knowledge of problems with Remington, Bushmaster, or DPMS so it may just be internet rumor.

 

[yzguy87]

Shadow 7D, thats what I figured but didn't want to speculate too much. I try to support those who support our rights and are not in it just for the money. I'm a believer in 1 Timothy 6:10.

 

[Outlaw Man]

I have an old high school buddy that works in quality control (can't think of his exact title) at Remington's ammo plant. From what he's told me, at least at that plant, the main changes have been in upper management. Cerberus's main interest is in buying a company, cutting out the "fat" and making it profitable. And, hopefully, selling it for tremendous profits.

Again, I can only speak for the ammunition factory, but most of the workers are the same ones since before the acquisition. They are trying to improve quality.

As with many large corporations that are set up this way, there are surely some bureaucratic hurdles to get through. I would love to see them revert back to private ownership by their employees, but I don't know if that's ever going to happen.

 

[Akita1]

It's about money, not about better guns, not about history, not about quality
you don't have 'gun' people in charge
you have money managers, corporate raiders etc. who will, have and continue to do the expedient things, like the S&W 'clinton' agreement, which cost that group, and ended with S&W being sold for a substantial LOSS

Echo that Shadow; Freedom is (currently) controlled by Cerberus Capital - a private equity fund. PE is by definition is opportunistic: buy it, make it a better profit generator (squeeze it), then flip it for a nice multiple. Has very little to do with quality of the end product in the short term.

 

[TheSaint]

Firearms are a freedom. Shadow was on point regarding not having gun people in charge. People with passion tend to care more about what they design, build and continue to support. I don't have anything against venture capital in general, but honestly, I would MUCH rather support a small or medium size business that generally grows slowly, cautiously and tries to employ as many local citizens as possible, not cut costs ruthlessly and ultimately, jobs.

Not to mention, it is much harder for a tyrant (corporate or governmental) to cut off the supply of guns when the manufacture and supply chains are diversified and spread out. That alone is reason enough for me to avoid the Freedom Group family. There are plenty of better options out there that I'm willing to support and do.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Compare a Zastava made gun, or a CZ made gun to a CNC mass made, current remchester
hell compare a 1950's to current production

 

[thump_rrr]

I have issues with Cerberus regardless of what they own.
As others have mentioned they are corporate raiders ie. vultures.
They are not concerned with the welfare of their employees or the history behind the brands that they have purchased.
It's all about the bottom line.

 

[Hacker15E]

It's about money, not about better guns, not about history, not about quality
you don't have 'gun' people in charge
you have money managers, corporate raiders etc. who will, have and continue to do the expedient things, like the S&W 'clinton' agreement, which cost that group, and ended with S&W being sold for a substantial LOSS

Well, who would guess that a business would have a profit motive behind what they do....what's the world coming to?

 

[larryh1108]

My ex worked for a company that Cerberus bought out. The company was originally a family run business for decades and then branched out regionally. Back in the day I worked there (it's where I met my ex) and it was a company that treated their employees fairly, took pride in their product and was a strong force in the community. When the economy took a dive in the dot com crash, Cerberus took over the company. They cut the "fat" (mid-level management) and gave their responsibilities to the people under them. They cut payroll to a point of breaking the camel's back. My ex used to love her job but started to come home and cry from the increased work load and pressure. She often times punched out (overtime became forbidden) to finish her work. The company bought less quality products (read cheaper) in many, non-critical areas but it still made a difference to the consumer who was not any wiser. Their goal was to, yes, make a profit. They made it look good on paper in the present tense with no regard for the future sense. Screw them now (both employees and consumers) and let the damage occur after they sell. Well, the economy took time to recover (it never really did) and they shut down a good 30% of the business. They finally busted up the company into smaller sub-groups and sold what was left. I don't know if they made money or not but when the head hunters came to the company, and they did every 3 months, they knew key people would be gone that day. Yeah, they are there to turn a quick profit but at what cost? This is first hand, not friend of a friend experience. If you hear Cerberus is buying your company, look for a new job asap before you have no choice. They are blood suckers.

 

[Eb1]

And people wonder why Romney didn't win the election. Listen to how you all are talking about venture capitalists.

 

[larryh1108]

Well, they're dumping companies because their stock holders don't like gun related companies and we're staying away from them because we don't like gun grabbing supporters. Sounds like free enterprise to me.

 

[Davek1977]

While not impressed with the qaulity control aspect, I have no issue with somoene legally obtaining control of a company, making changes, and then getting rid of it at a profit. Being profitable and making money is what business is about, and while I may not like the changes made, its simply not my place to say they should be done differently. When I own a company, I hope people afford me the same respect. Quite frankly, its none of our business what one does with their own property, regardless of the historical significance one may attach to a name or names.

 

[larryh1108]

Davek, what you say is 100% true. As consumers we also have choices and we don't have to put money into their pockets if we don't like how they run their business, for whatever reason.

 

[GoWolfpack]

While not impressed with the qaulity control aspect, I have no issue with somoene legally obtaining control of a company, making changes, and then getting rid of it at a profit. Being profitable and making money is what business is about, and while I may not like the changes made, its simply not my place to say they should be done differently. When I own a company, I hope people afford me the same respect. Quite frankly, its none of our business what one does with their own property, regardless of the historical significance one may attach to a name or names.

You're going to have to stop that 'making sense' business right this minute.

Companies belong to their owners, not the workers or the customers.

 

[JohnBT]

Why hate Freedom Group? What they did to Marlin is all the reason I need. They got rid of all but about 3 employees, moved the factory out of state and didn't have anyone who knew how to set up the equipment. Don't even ask about having anyone left who knew how to build a rifle - a 100-year-old design and they manage to forget how to build one?

I love venture capitalists - the smart ones.


"And people wonder why Romney didn't win the election."

No they don't. Only the central party faithful thought he had any chance at all.

John

 

[BullRunBear]

I agree with DaveK. Companies exist to make a profit, period. It is, literally, their business to be run as they want.

The difference (and stupidity) here is that Cerberus isn't dealing with making cold cereal or a loaf of bread or any disposable items that can be 'squeezed' without consequences. They are making tools with a history of quality that people remember and with which they can compare new products. The guns are not consumed quickly but should last for many years, maybe generations. They need knowledgeable employees, not unenthusiastic drones on an assembly line. Most of their customers regard buying these products as a significant expense and have to be happy with the purchase or they will go elsewhere even if it means a slightly higher cost. Customer satisfaction means everything in this business. Why else would Marlin, Remington, etc., have lasted for over a century and set industry standards? Sacrificing that satisfaction for the sake of momentary and slightly higher profit is self-defeating.

I have no problem with the existence of Cerberus, Freedom Group, or venture cap companies in general. But I do have a problem when they cheapen their new products, charge more, and think their customer base is too stupid to notice a decline in quality. That might work for some items, not firearms, and if they can't see that I have trouble trusting their products.

Sorry. Rant off for now.

Jeff

 

[Shultzhaus]

Cerberus and Freedom group - beware of anything George Soros is involved in. He has allegedly vowed to purchase gun manufactures, and shut them down.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Consider, there are those in the business of BUILDING companies
then there are those in the business of flipping companies

Think of it as houses
one company buys up a foreclosure market, renovates them from the ground up
the second buys in same market, fixes only the stuff the inspector finds, slaps a new coat of a paint on it, and they sells them, point to the complete renovated homes saying ours are just as good, but we aren't screwing you. Which would you buy?

Warren Buffet made his billions as a raider
but its MUCH cheaper to vulture a company than build a company.

 

[JohnBT]

"Cerberus and Freedom group - beware of anything George Soros is involved in."

The NRA doesn't believe that old rumor. Snopes doesn't believe it. I don't believe it because there has been no evidence or proof of any sort.

 

[Hacker15E]

Cerberus and Freedom group - beware of anything George Soros is involved in. He has allegedly vowed to purchase gun manufactures, and shut them down.

In addition, beware of believing Internet rumors that are quite easily proven untrue...like the one about Soros having any involvement whatsoever with Freedom or Cerebrus.

 

[mdauben]

I agree with DaveK. Companies exist to make a profit, period. It is, literally, their business to be run as they want.

This is quite true, but short term profit at the cost of long term viability is one of the sadder aspects of our capitalist system.

In the case in question, I'm sure that on paper, what was done to Marlin made the company appear more profitable. How many potential customers, however, have they lost due to the horrendous QC problems that ensued? I know I will never buy a new Marlin product again. I'll either buy used or buy a similar product from one of their competitors. Even if they have or will someday fix the QC problems they had I will never be able to trust them again. Over my lifetime I could have seen buying three to six Marlin rifles, so that's a half dozen lost sales. Sure, my 6 lost purchases are not going to ruin the company but how many times is that multiplied by people who feel the same way?