Why is .38 brass so long?

[Mark13]

I was comparing some .38 ammo I have to 9mm. Can someone explain why the .38 round is so much longer than 9mm for a milder round? Was .38 downloaded after it was created, but they kept the longer case?

When I shake the .38 round I can hear the powder grains in the case, like its got lots of extra room. If there is extra room in a .38 why do you need an even longer case for .357?

 

[Cosmoline]

Good question! The easy answer would be because the cartridge was originally loaded with black powder. But to my knowledge the .38 Special never was. The answer may lie in the fact that the .38 Special was BASED on a cartridge which WAS loaded with BP--the .38 Long Colt. Now the .38 long colt was pretty long already, and in order to avoid having the smokeless .38 Special blow up an old revolver in .38 LC, the makers made the .38 Special even longer than the long colt. Just as a generation later the .357 was made longer to avoid blowing up .38 Special revolvers. The extra room in the .38 Special, of course, coupled with the relative modernity of the revolvers it was chambered in, made it a favorite for those who enjoyed hot loading sixguns. Indeed IIRC there were pre-.357 loads for .38 Special which exceed anything on the market today. They'd be .38 Special +P++

 

[Old Fuff]

The .38 Special cartridge was introduced by Smith & Wesson in 1899, and was designed to be loaded with a charge of black power. Black powder is a relatively inefficient propellant, so cartridge cases needed to have a lot of capacity (or length) to hold an effective charge. The 9mm Parabellum or Luger round was designed to use smokeless powder that could equal or surpass the performance of black powder with a much smaller charge. Hence, pistol cartridges were shorter.

The also had to be shorter so that they’d fit in a box magazine that wasn’t so wide that the handle would be oversized to the point where one couldn’t wrap their hand around it, and slide travel wouldn’t be excessively long.

There is no reason revolver cartridges couldn’t be shortened, but so far no manufacturer has seen fit to do anything except Federal – who introduced a rimmed 9mm cartridge, but it bombed. The closest we’ve come is the .45 Auto-Rim cartridge that allows one to shoot Smith & Wesson or Colt double action revolvers chambered to use the .45 ACP round, but forgo otherwise necessary half-moon or full-moon clips.

The .357 Magnum cartridge was made longer so that the more powerful round couldn't be chambered in a .38 revolver that might not be equal to the elevated pressures, while a Magnum owner could shoot .38 Specials when they didn't want or need Magnum performance.

 

[Old Fuff]

Cosmoline:

As originally introduced the .38 S&W Special cartridge was loaded with a charge of 21 1/2 grains of black powder and a 158 grain round nose/lead bullet. The case was lengthened over the .38 Long Colt so that it would hold a heavier charge of powder and a heavier bullet. The .38 Long Colt was loaded with a charge of 18 grains of black powder and a 150 grain bullet.

While you are correct in saying that the .357 Magnum was lengthened over the .38 Special to prevent its use in weaker revolvers this wasn't the case between the .38 Long Colt and .38 Special. Colt's early .38 cylinders were bored straight through and could chamber a .38 Special cartridge, although this wasn't (and isn’t) recommended.

 

[Josey]

Another opinion. S&W wanted to prevent people from loading wadcutters in a 38 Special case and loading breaktop 38 S&W revolvers with them. I have seen at least two revolvers that this was attempted in. Both were KBs. The other issue again is that importers brought Webley, Enfield, Colt, S&W and Albion 380-200 British revolvers into the US. Some importers line bored them and suggested using 38 Special wadcutters in the modified revolvers. Not suggested as a matter of course. I have seen USPS Postal 38 S&Ws that were line bored too. 38 S&W is the only safe load for a 38 S&W chamber. There are many WWII S&W M&Ps that were lend lease to UK/Commonwealth that have been line bored for 38 Special also. Some will chamber 357 Magnum cartridges. UNSAFE! S&W had to do something to market their 38 Special as superior to the "antiquated" 38 Long Colt. Length fit into marketing along with being smokeless.

 

[BluesBear]

One of the reasons that the Federal 9mm Rimmed bombed was that the round would chamber in most .38 S&W chambered revolvers.
Touching one of those puppies off in Granpa's old Owl Head lemon squeezer would be disassterous.



Main Entry: di·sass·trous
Pronunciation: dis-'ass-tr&s
Function: adjective
1 : attended by or causing suffering examplified by the possibility or probability of blowing ones ass off

di·sass·trous·ly
Function: adverb
1 : describing an action in which you have already blown your ass off
not to be confused with castration

 

[Gabe]

I thought it was because the cylinder gap reduced the power of revolver cartridges. I think a 9mm fired from a revolver will have less velocity than an automatic, given equal rifled barrel length.

 

[Jim March]

Gabe: you'd be surprised. Velocity data with 9mms in the various 2" barrel 9mm moonclip snubbies shows pretty strong velocities, usually equal to at least a 3" slidegun.

The 38Spl was indeed the last smokeless cartridge made. Smokeless powders were phased in starting around 1895ish and more or less dominant by 1903. Exceptions exist in either direction.

All of the old "Black Powder cartridges" are "oversize", such as the 45LC, 45-70Gov't, 44-40 and more. It turns out that such "oversize" cases still have advantages in reducing peak pressure on ignition...but they weigh too much and are too bulky to attract attention from police/military on that basis, with very rare exceptions (individual cops packin' 45LC, 45-70 leverguns as squad car rifles in bear country, etc.).

 

[Mark13]

Thanks This is interesting.

So it seems that .38 is a lot longer than it needs to be. For the reloaders out there, is the 9mm pretty much maxed out at the +P+ level in terms of case space? I've heard there is even hotter 9mm SMG ammo out there is this maxed out? What's the limit for 9mm?

Also if you had a strong gun you could shoot .357 mag type loads out of a .38? Is that what .38 super is?

 

[Mal H]

Jim - I think Gabe might be closer to right when considering his key statement, "... given equal rifled barrel length."

Mark13 - "Also if you had a strong gun you could shoot .357 mag type loads out of a .38? Is that what .38 super is?"

Given a strong .38 Spcl revolver (e.g., SP101), I suppose it's possible to cram enough of a high energy powder into a 38 Spcl case to equal the velocity of a .357 Mag, but it is not advisable. The .38 Spcl case is generally thinner and not able to withstand magnum pressures. Even a .38 Spcl +P doesn't use nearly as much powder as a .357 Mag.

The .38 [Auto] Super is a different beast altogether. It uses a rimless case and is similar to the 38 Auto (not to be confused with the .380 ACP). The strongest loads in a .38 Super will not match a .357 Magnum and should not be attempted.

 

[Old Fuff]

Blues B:

Federal engineers considered the possibility that someone might chamber their rimmed 9mm in an old .38 S&W but considered various options to prevent this including an extra-thick rim.

It should be noted that while a .38 Special +P or +P+ cartridge can be loaded into a Colt model 1877 or 1892 revolver intended to be used with .38 Long Colt rounds, this didn’t stop ammunition manufacturers from hot-loading the .38 Special.

The .38 Super Automatic cartridge can also be chambered in old Colt pistols dating from 1900 that were designed to use the .38 Automatic round. Again, this didn’t stop the ammunition companies from offering the later, more powerful ammunition.

What killed Federal’s 9mm was almost total indifference on the part of handgun manufacturers and the market in general. There simply wasn’t enough interest.

 

[stans]

Main Entry: di·sass·trous
Pronunciation: dis-'ass-tr&s
Function: adjective
1 : attended by or causing suffering examplified by the possibility or probability of blowing ones ass off

di·sass·trous·ly
Function: adverb
1 : describing an action in which you have already blown your ass off
not to be confused with castration

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!

 

[Josey]

To add another 38. Orbea was a quality Spanish firearms manufacturer. There was a 38 Largo developed and used in a Orbea Police revolver for years. This was a black power load. These revolvers looked like S&W M&Ps. 38 Specials in black powder could be used in them. 38 Special smokeless would ruin one of these revolvers. I see these old Orbeas for $50-75.00 at gunshows. Ignorant dealers often sell 38 Special smokeless cartridges with them.

 

[BluesBear]

Old Fuff, I only said it was one reason, not the reason.
In reality the 9mm Federal was a solution to a problem that wasn't there.

Back before I became old and stupid I was young and uneducated.
My maternal grandfather died when I was 12. He left my mother his old Colt revolver he carried in the war and as a security guard for 20+ years.
It was a 6" Colt 1892 Navy with full Navy markings. 90% of the blue was long gone. But it was still tight. When he died it was lying on a shelf next to his easy chair loaded with 6 rounds of Peters .38 Hi-Speed (.38/44) ammunition.

It came with a black Bauer Brothers holster he used as a guard and a brown WWII military flap holster on a GI pistol belt. There were thousands of empty Remington, Winchester and GI .38 Special cases in old peanut butter jars from all of the rounds he had fired in it.

After all, all it said on the barrel regarding caliber was DA .38. At that time I hadn't learned about the others except for .38S&W and .38 Super.
I, along with my father fired over a thousand rounds of .38 Special out of it from the time I was 13 until I was 16 and got my first .45 and lost interest in the old gun. Oh those sights.
There was even that partial box of Peters .38/44 Hi-Speed that we shot out of it.


I am damed lucky none of those early range trips ended disasstrously!

 

[Old Fuff]

I think that the bores on most of those early Colt's ran around .360, and this may have helped save your hide ...

But .38-44 in an old .38 D.A. Colt ... ???

I have seen two with blown cylinders that were fired with plain, ordinary .38 Special/158-grain service loads.

The Old Fuff is going to go put something stonger in his morning coffee ...

 

[Old Fuff]

To return to the question of shorter revolver cartridges. One of the brighter sides in handgun sales is the current popularity of lightweight snub-nosed guns chambered in .38 Special or .357 Magnum. Most if not all of these have extractor rods that will push the fired cases part way out of the cylinder, but not eject them. The long cartridge’s overall length combined with a small frame can also cause interference between a speedloader and the left grip panel. Clearly a much shorter cartridge would serve better in these guns. The Federal rimmed 9mm round and the much older .45 Auto Rim are good examples, although the latter isn’t likely to be seen in a SMALL snubby.

I once experimented using some .38 Short Colt ammunition and speedloaders in a .38 Special revolver, and loading and ejecting the empties was much easier – especially the loading part.

So why not use moon-clips? Yes, they are a possible solution, but in this situation you have to use the clips, and the quality and reliability of some have come into question. You can also use speed-strips rather then speedloaders with a rimed cartridge.

I also think it would be advantageous to shorten the cylinder and frame when using a 9mm size cartridge to further reduce bulk and weight. Taurus is apparently going too do this with their new Instant Backup (IB) line of revolvers. Many years ago Colt did the same thing with their Police Positive.

Anyway, our current crop of black powder based revolver cartridges are not the optimal choice for use in a snubby.

 

[Josey]

I still want a 455 Webley MKVI 2" snubbie!! The neat part would be dropping a 45 ACP cut cylinder into it and using moon clips. You would have to stay with factory lower pressure rounds though. The 2" round butt that a friend has is just cool. I did find a 2" Enfield 38.

 

[Jim March]

Stupid question: what if had a 357Mag Scandium or whatever snubby. You took 357 brass and chopped them short - to 9x19 length, and you used 115/125JHPs loaded with 9mmPara powder charges? In other words, basically wildcatted a rimmed 9mmPara load? And then relied on the shorter cases to eject faster...

Would that work? Would the case volume be ballpark close enough the same between the two brass types to allow the same ballistics data to work the same way?

 

[BluesBear]

Jim, I did that back in 1977. I was carrying a 6" Colt Python on duty. Our Chief wanted all duty belts to look uniform so we were only allowed one dual speedloader pouch.

I had two of the original HKS Aluminum body speedloaders. Those had smaller knobs than the later plastic bodied ones. I put an aluminum one on the bottom and a plastic one on top. That way I could carry 4 loaders.

I used Winchester .38 Short Colt brass (Remington Short Colt was shorter) and used near max 9mm loading data with Sierra 125gr JHC. I later worked up some loads using Speer 140gr ½jacket HP.
I found that you had to be sure to hold the muzzle up when ejecting since the shorter rounds could slip under the star. I learned it the hard way, but luckily, at the range.


Later when I switched to a .45acp revolver I achieved the same result by putting a pair of half-moon clips (full moonies didn't exist then) on top of each HKS 25M.

 

[Josey]

Problems. What diameter of bullet? A .355 9MM would be "loose" in a .357 case. I could see bullets jumping a crimp, if any. That would lock up the revolver. I wonder why there isn't a little RUGER ONLY!! 38 S&W research. The British 380-200 was developed into a Magnum. The round was made illegal. I would never use anything like that in a old antique breaktop. I have known of Ruger 38 S&Ws being made though for Egypt. There is a rim, short case, heavy bullet and it won't (shouldn't at .359-.361) chamber in regular 38 Special revolvers. I guess it could be done but, should it be done?

 

[Jim March]

Our Chief wanted all duty belts to look uniform so we were only allowed one dual speedloader pouch.

That's just...



What kind of moron makes a rule like that?



OK, topic drift, yeah but...:banghead:

I'd be MUCH more afraid of a department full of shooters who customized their gear and layout to meet individual needs and styles.

 

[Jim March]

Back on topic: Josey, obviously the bullet would have to be sized to the barrel. But .001"/.002" diameter differences won't throw powder charges off too much, on their own. Crimp type would make more of a difference.

And the key in sizing the shell length wouldn't necessarily be the length, but rather the case capacity. One answer: fill a fired 9mm case (old primer still in) with water, then pour that into a 38Spl or 357 case. Mark the level, and cut it short there. Now you've got the same case capacity so the same reloading data with the same bullet weight will be ballpark similar.

 

[Hal]

never mind

(akk - too late)

 

[Jim March]

That's why I'm *asking* . I'm NOT a reloader yet .

Probably phrased that last post wrong...am up late dealing with prep for a meeting tomorrow AM. Didn't mean to imply I was anywhere near certain, and that was indeed a mistake.

 

[Hal]

Jim,
Thanks for not taking offence. I violated the think twice/post once by not phrasing what I typed right.

Re: stupid question - no such thing except the one left unasked.

Anyhow,,,to the point.
What it boils down to, is that what looks good on paper, and what looks very feasable and safe ,,, often isn't. Sometimes the results are so far off, it's incredible.

Anyway,,is it possible to cut down a .357 and load it to 9mm Luger? Probably. No doubt it's been done quite a bit. AFAIK, there isn't any published data on it though. Personally, I'd shy away from it until I saw some data gathered from testing it in a pressure barrel.

Smokless is just too unpredicatble.