Why is there such insularity in the gun community?

[Officers'Wife]

This is too loaded of a subject for me to fully comment. Enough to say that although there is a common thread of firearms possession not all people are able to get past other views. Some dealing with firearms some not. In many cases these differences are divisive enough it's better to keep the groups separated.

 

[Magic_Man]

Every gun person I have met has been nothing but nice & open. Always enjoyable to have a conversation about a hobby I enjoy w/a stranger that enjoys it too.

 

[ArmedBear]

I've noticed that a few of us think that a lot of people are open and friendly.

And a few of us think that a lot of people are insular and unfriendly.

There are a couple of possibilities here.

One is geographic differences. The US has many subcultures, some friendly, some not.

Another, and it's worth considering, is this. If you're not in a place known for being unfriendly, and many people treat you like they don't want to have anything to do with you, then maybe the problem isn't them. Maybe it's you.

I'm usually friendly, and overwhelmingly cordial. I'm often the one who speaks up and tries to welcome people who walk onto the skeet range or into the pistol club. But there are some people I steer clear of, too.

Just sayin'...

 

[JShirley]

I have a simple question for you, OP. Why do YOU feel that there seems to be a very insular and exclusive nature to gun ranges, shops, and the community of firearms in general? Gun owners in my experience go out of their way to welcome new members to the community, as long as they take a little effort to be safe and listen.

You're asking two questions, which are not necessarily related. You're asking about accessibility and attitude. These are different things.

 

[GEM]

Are other intensive sports any different before you draw broad conclusions?

I don't remember any cuddlies at the golf course (boring).

 

[ArmedBear]

Are other intensive sports any different before you draw broad conclusions?

That's another factor. A nice sunny practice session can be a hell of a lot friendlier than an official competition, where people want you to shut up and let them concentrate on getting "in the zone" -- just like any other sport I've ever tried.

 

[Nick5182]

Most of the people I've met at our local ranges are great people too. They always want to show off their new toys and are willing to give and take advice from other shooters.

 

[waterhouse]

Could be any number of reasons. I generally find people at the range to be very polite and welcoming.

One reason people may be cautious and hesitant to hang out with new shooters could just be the dangers associated with guns.

There is a local co-ed sports rec league here where you can sign up a team to play basketball, flag football, bowling, whatever. It is an extremely "welcoming" group. Any one can join, and a huge majority of the people are super friendly.

I've got a friend that races cars on a track with a group of like minded people. That is a much more "exclusive" group . . . you have to have references, take a safety test, and a few other things. I don't know squat about racing a car, but it is no easy task to get out on a track with these guys.

It isn't that the racing group doesn't want new members, but being out on a track with someone holds a higher risk than bowling or flag football, so they are more cautious about who they let join. The same could be true of firearms.

I often read about people being nervous at public ranges and the yahoos they see there. I belong to a private range. While not overly difficult to join (there is no membership cap, and dues are reasonable), it is a bit of a process. You have to attend a mandatory safety lecture and range orientation. You have to either have a carry permit or submit to a criminal background check, etc.

Possibly as a result of this, or possibly just that we generally live in a gun friendly area, members are super friendly. Someone almost always offers to let me shoot their guns when I'm there, and I do the same. I find the people there very welcoming, but to someone who is not a member looking in from the outside it may appear that the private club doesn't want new people around.

 

[ArmedBear]

One reason people may be cautious and hesitant to hang out with new shooters could just be the dangers associated with guns.

Yeah, or things like Holocaust survivors and WW II veterans out shooting, and some young guy with tattoos shows up wearing a black shirt with ZYCLON B on it in big white letters. He was summarily escorted off the Trap range by a bunch of ordinarily nice old guys, threatening him, with shotguns in their hands.

Now I'd met the guy, and he wasn't a bad guy, or a skinhead or anything. He did, however, have terrible fashion sense.

The shooting sports are populated by people with "old-school" sensibilities, whether the people are young or old. That means that shooting venues can be self-policing. If you're the one being policed, look in the mirror first.

 

[mljdeckard]

What I thought was snobbishness when I was younger was really just my own insecurity, worrying that I was good enough to hang out with more serious shooters. It was entirely in my head.

The only hostility I have ever seen at any range was due to unsafe behavior.

 

[Hokkmike]

The thing that bothers me is not any sort of insular nature of shooters and our sport but rather that slowly, bit by bit, and inevitably, interest in shooting, hunting, etc. seems to be dwindling.

 

[ny32182]

I'm 28 and don't have "old school sensibilities". Threatening someone with a weapon can get you shot, I don't care how old you are or what you did in the 40's.

 

[ArmedBear]

slowly, bit by bit, and inevitably, interest in shooting, hunting, etc. seems to be dwindling.

Really?

You should check out a range in California. Some places, you have to wait around for an hour or two just to get a turn to shoot. There's much to be said for "forbidden fruit".

 

[ArmedBear]

Threatening someone with a weapon can get you shot, I don't care how old you are or what you did in the 40's.

That's why it helps to have a group of people with weapons when you want to eject someone from a shooting range. The thing about old guys is that, while they may not be as quick as they once were, they're a hell of a lot smarter.

A range does have the right to refuse service to anyone.

 

[Ronsch]

I am in Juneau...I teach Hunter Education as well as being an NRA RSO.

I was photographed for the Juneau Empire on Friday, 12 March 2010 edition, teaching DZ Hunter Ed classes.

 

[ny32182]

Is it a private range, and are the guys "escorting him off" administrators with the legal right to do so? If not, I think he does have the right to refuse.

 

[ArmedBear]

LOL

Why don't you go to a privately-owned range with a t-shirt glorifying the Holocaust and assert your right to refuse to leave? Have fun.

 

[ny32182]

I spend most of my time at public ranges, and I'll wear a purple sock on my head if I want...

That was part of the point of my original post. No one demographic can claim "dibs on gun ownership" or dibs on the right to shoot, or the right to use a PUBLIC facility. Gun ownership is a common thing in society that spans all demographics and personality types. As it should be.

 

[ArmedBear]

The ethic of chasing away people who appear to be neo-Nazis away from any gathering of civilized individuals should also span all demographics and personality types. Purple socks have nothing to do with it.

Do you show up at the range wearing a white hood and robe?

 

[Sam1911]

Denying someone access to a public place/facility to engage in a lawful activity, because you don't like the way they look or what they might say or believe really isn't kosher. Even neo-Nazis have the right to assemble and the right to use public facilities.

Now, a private club is a different matter, of course, but threatening someone with a firearm -- when that person has not harmed you or threatened you in any way (other than offending your sensibilities) is generally legally considered assault, I believe (even at a private club).

If some punk kid comes to your club range with a "Zyklon B" t-shirt on and a shaved head, you can't draw a gun on him. He may HATE Norwegians or Chilleans or whomever with all his heart, but that doesn't give you legal justification to threaten him with a weapon.

And, if he's at a public range, he has just as much right to be there as do you.

Now, he may not be ACCEPTED and WELCOMED into your group, and I don't think that would be seen as unreasonably "insular" by most people.

Still, the shooting world is EXPLODING. There are SO many more people out buying guns, joining gun clubs, competing, training, etc, these days that a lot of folks are going to have to get real comfortable with "riff raff" enjoying the facilities with them. And the sooner those "riff raff" become "friends" and shooting buddies, the better.

 

[ArmedBear]

If some punk kid comes to your club range with a "Zyklon B" t-shirt on and a shaved head, you can't draw a gun on him.

Legally, that's true.

However, the response "Threatening someone with a weapon can get you shot, I don't care how old you are or what you did in the 40's" was objectively silly. There's such a thing as the real world, too.

Be all that as it may, if "insularity" means "we don't allow those who make it a point to appear to be gang members, violent racists, or criminals at our range" then I'm all for it. Like I said, I usually go out of my way to welcome people.

But if we care about RKBA, we have both legal and PR concerns, too. Sometimes, that trumps the "I have rights!" mentality that Monty Python lampooned years ago already: "Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being oppressed!"

 

[ny32182]

However, the response "Threatening someone with a weapon can get you shot, I don't care how old you are or what you did in the 40's" was objectively silly. There's such a thing as the real world, too.

What is objectively silly is suggesting a group of folks is going to threaten someone with physical violence in a place they have every right to be. If that happens, nazi-boy has the right to shoot back, as he is now an involuntary party to a situation involving the threat of lethal violence. Regardless of his beliefs.

Be all that as it may, if "insularity" means "we don't allow those who make it a point to appear to be gang members, violent racists, or criminals at our range" then I'm all for it. Like I said, I usually go out of my way to welcome people.

Define how the range is "yours". If it is public, it is not yours. If it is private, and the guy doesn't have a membership, he doesn't have the right to be there... but if he does... he does. Should've screened him out during the application process.

 

[Werewolf]

What is objectively silly is suggesting a group of folks is going to threaten someone with physical violence in a place they have every right to be.

I won't disagree with that and will even go so far as to say, "philosophically - you are 100% correct". But moral, legal, whatever quite often bumps up against reality and loses.

If that happens, nazi-boy has the right to shoot back, as he is now an involuntary party to a situation involving the threat of lethal violence. Regardless of his beliefs.

Having the right and exercising it are two very different things. In the scenario described if "nazi-boy" had responded by shooting a few of those old farts because he feared for his life he quite possibly would have been legally justified in doing so.

That said: I sure as hell wouldn't want to be him after he did and when the cops showed up with him all tatooed and wearing a zyklon-b T-Shirt.

I sure as hell wouldn't want to be him at trial in front of 12 ordinary citizens trying to explain why he offed some WWII veterans and holocaust survivors at a gun range. Any half way competent DA could get the death penalty trying the case from his cell phone while eating lunch at the local diner.

Sometimes right and reality duke it out and right doesn't always win.

 

[NG VI]

You know, I have to say I sympathize completely with you on friends who like guns or shooting. Just two nights ago I was out with my roomate, one of my best friends, we met up with a couple of friends of his and one of them started saying something about going shooting the next day. I asked what kind of guns they were going to be bringing, he said a couple of muzzleloaders, some other guns I can't remember, and a little revolver.

In his words, it would only shoot straight for maybe ten feet. I know this is blatantly wrong from reading people's posts here, never fired a J or K frame anything before, and also from my expirements shooting my Taurus PT-22 at fairly long range.

So I told him that those small framed revolvers are actually pretty accurate, it just takes a little bit of practice and effort, and they'll shoot at least as well as any other gun.

His next comment made me very curious about his train of thought.

Because he said "yeah, but I don't plan on shooting anybody so it doesn't really matter"

As if the only reason to be a good shot is to shoot people. Huh. What do you see wrong with that exchange?

 

[ny32182]

Yeah.. well.. you guys go ahead and shoot a guy for wearing a t-shirt, and see how that reality works out for you.