Why it's time to stop recommending 308Win, tips for new "long range" shooters.
- Thread starter The_Next_Generation
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I agree, when the discussion is long range target shooting. No doubt about it these days. A good debate would be just how much of a handicap the .308 would be and why.
For informal F-Class and playing at distances I think I'll have the chance to shoot =< 600 yards), I chose .308 for a couple of simple reason. I had everything I needed. It can do the job on game and bad guys, as well as be competitive in local F-Class.
If I got the chance and chose to shoot long distance seriously, I would look at what is winning now, just like I did back when I started Benchrest and chose the 6 PPC.
As you know I too have the FN SPR in .308. It is a fine rifle, if not cutting edge long range ready. Since you will be re-barreling to a new caliber, this would be a fine time to listen to the arguments for/against other calibers.
Nature Boy
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I've been reading quite a bit and have shot friend's rifles chambered in .243 and 6.5 CM.
Honestly, my lean toward .260 is more a lean away from what is "trendy". I've also been contemplating .284 win and 6mm Dasher.
Heck, If I could make up my mind the rifle would have already gone to the shop and been back by now and I'd be in this thread throwing dirt on the grave of the .308 like so may others
a friend (who is usually top 3 in PRS) posted a pic on fb last week showing the screen of his labradar that showed an 11 fps ES and 2.7 fps SD over 40 shots with his 6 dasher. pretty impressive. not fast by any means, but dang consistent and feels like 22lr or something.
i regularly got 4-6 fps ES and 1 SD with 5 round groups and usually 7-9 fps ES and 2-3 SD with 10 round groups, but i honestly doubt 40 shots in a row would maintain that consistency. like Art often argues that he only cares about the first 3 shots. i really care about the first 10 shots, because most stages are 10 rounds and if i haven't solved a problem in 10 rounds, the answer probably wasn't precision. but 40 shots is definitely impressive.
and while you can argue about hunting and tactical applications... the 6dasher is sure winning a lot of matches that are mostly 300-1000 yard targets.
i'm not advocating it. just saying.
i regularly got 4-6 fps ES and 1 SD with 5 round groups and usually 7-9 fps ES and 2-3 SD with 10 round groups, but i honestly doubt 40 shots in a row would maintain that consistency. like Art often argues that he only cares about the first 3 shots. i really care about the first 10 shots, because most stages are 10 rounds and if i haven't solved a problem in 10 rounds, the answer probably wasn't precision. but 40 shots is definitely impressive.
and while you can argue about hunting and tactical applications... the 6dasher is sure winning a lot of matches that are mostly 300-1000 yard targets.
i'm not advocating it. just saying.
Indeed! How is it for barrel life?
I have that problem with lots of things.
someguy2800
Member
When I rebareled my Savage I was considering 6XC, 6mm creedmore, 6.5 creedmore and 308. The decision factors for me came down to cost of brass, local availability of components, cost of dies, and cost of a barrel. I don't have creedmore brass local so I would have to order it, not a big deal. When I looked 308 brass was the cheapest. I already had a set of nice 308 dies from another rifle. I got a smoking deal on a match grade 308 barrel that made it 2-300 dollars cheaper than the others. Made it a pretty simple choice for me. If not for those factors I probably would have gotten a 6xc or 6mm creedmore. No regrets here, but like I said I'm not much of a long range shooter. I just mess around from time to time at what many of you consider moderate distances.
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
I finally decided on my .260 Rem because it's comparatively easy to form .260 brass from .308 or any of the other cartridges in the same family. And I've got a boatload of .308 and .243 brass! Even though that was a decision factor, I've not done it yet; scored sufficient .260 brass to keep me busy for a while.
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Flatbush Harry
Member
I have both .308 Win and .260 Rem rifles. The .260 Rem with 139gr Lapua Scenars and 142 gr SMKs is a better performer with wind but I find the recoil differences minimal. The .308 will not burn out barrels as fast as the 6.5mms but that should not be the primary decision criterion. To be sure, most winning competitors today are using 6mm or 6.5mm rifles but the .308 Win is never a bad choice for a first rifle IMHO. I cut my 600-yard teeth in the late '60s with .308 Win from a M14 in Service Rifle matches so I'm not willing to write it off (as I still shoot M1As though not as well as when I was young).
FWIW, I have always believed that training and practice are more important than caliber choice. That said, many fine rifles and excellent ammo are currently offered in 6.5 Creedmor. You won't get it wrong going that route.
Good luck and good shooting,
Harry
FWIW, I have always believed that training and practice are more important than caliber choice. That said, many fine rifles and excellent ammo are currently offered in 6.5 Creedmor. You won't get it wrong going that route.
Good luck and good shooting,
Harry
I agree 100 %
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Hmmm, the OP stipulated "enjoyment" so I will stick to this argument as a matter of relevance for now.
How people enjoy their shooting varies. Some people want to shoot bigger bores. Others, not so much. The absolutism advice of the OP is flawed because of the absolutism. There is no way that the claim that there is NO reason for recommending the .308win "For shooting enthusiasts (by this I mean people shooting for enjoyment, not survival) interested in a centerfire bolt-gun for casual target and any kind distance work" is just plain flawed.
Of course, there are those who would definitely like to develop a capability and maximize effectiveness and maybe they want to do it with a .308win. What is the matter with that?
The funny thing is, I don't completely disagree with him. I think there are certainly better calibers that are more recoil friendly when it comes to paper punching and I would and have suggested such to shooters, but to completely stipulate that there is NO REASON for suggesting a given caliber that will work and that many people will and certainly DO find enjoyable to shoot is just pretty silly.
Chuck R.
Member
I've been reading quite a bit and have shot friend's rifles chambered in .243 and 6.5 CM.
Honestly, my lean toward .260 is more a lean away from what is "trendy". I've also been contemplating .284 win and 6mm Dasher.
Heck, If I could make up my mind the rifle would have already gone to the shop and been back by now and I'd be in this thread throwing dirt on the grave of the .308 like so may others
Another one you might consider is the 6mm Super Long Range (6mm SLR) which is simply a .243 run into a FL sizing die that creates a 30 degree shoulder angle and a longer case neck, same overall length. This is probably the next chambering I'm going to get.
.243, 6mm SLR & 6XC
The idea of buying cheap .243 brass, prepping and sorting it has got me interested.
Chuck
uhh, because the 308win is marginally effective, and nowhere close to maximum effectiveness?
using your logic i could make the same case for any cartridge at all. hey, 22lr has great barrel life and i've shot one at long range before and it was fun so i recommend everyone learn on a 22lr. same for 300 blk. etc.
the problem comes when you're laying on the line with your buddies and they're hitting targets and you're not. they're having fun and you're having a silent debate in your head wondering whether it's something wrong with your rifle or scope or you just can't read the wind like they can or what.
this happens all the time and it's sad. fortunately where i shoot, folks are friendly and 2 or 3 guys will let the new guy shoot their rifle a few times and hit some targets.
Benchrest guys would do this with a newbie struggling with poor equipment. It really helped make the light go on and show that spending the money was worth it. I was mentored by a couple of shooters and they helped steer me to some top notch used equipment capable of winning matches, so I got started off well.
Jackal
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Whacking steel with $.50cpr factory/surplus ammo is fun though. Can't do that with a 6.5...
Can't do that with a 6.5...
Nature Boy
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Thanks a lot chuck. You're not helping me make up my mind
medic15al
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I can agree with the Original Poster. However the rifle I wanted was only available in .308 Win. ( Steyr SSG 69 PII )
It is that, although I am nearly out of it. Well, except for the brand new 147 gr FMJ I bought for $80 quite some time back. I bought 500 surplus, but it came in corroded, and they replaced it with 500 new in the box IMI.
1stmarine
Member
I want a caliber that hits with the momentum of a 700 Nitro, has the reach of the cheytac, but with the recoil, weight and costs of the 22LR.
...
That would be nice, wouldn't be?
The 308 can do things the 260/6.5 cannot do and vice-versa.
A simple 7mm-08 gives the best of both sides of the spectrum.
Ballistics, like physics itself, is always a world of trade-offs of some sort.
Don't let the internet and youtube fashions interfere with your judgement.
...
That would be nice, wouldn't be?
The 308 can do things the 260/6.5 cannot do and vice-versa.
A simple 7mm-08 gives the best of both sides of the spectrum.
Ballistics, like physics itself, is always a world of trade-offs of some sort.
Don't let the internet and youtube fashions interfere with your judgement.
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old heeler
Member
If F- class dropped the 308 as a requirement to shoot certain matches and shooter had a choice would they pick 308.
Gtscotty
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I've seen you write this before, but I've never seen you post the details of this one load to rule them all. I'm interested to hear the specifics of this 7mm-08 load, bullet, powder weight, barrel brand/length, actual chrono'd velocity, etc.
1stmarine
Member
Sure thing..
Manufactures resist to give us decent high performance loads but there are some to start with for reference..
This is a new round that for who knows what reason is not available in 162gr amax, I mean ELD or ELDX now.
Possibly because remignton is not pushing for their products and making rifles with the proper twist.
Still a pretty good round.
https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/7mm-08-rem-150-gr-eld-x-precision-hunter#!/
7mm-08 Rem 150 gr ELD-X® Precision Hunter®
Item #85578 | 20/Box
Accuracy and terminal performance are the cornerstones of Hornady® Precision Hunter™ factory loaded ammunition. Great care has been given by Hornady® engineers to develop superior, match-accurate hunting loads that allow the ELD-X® bullet to achieve its maximum ballistic potential.
Propellants used in the Precision Hunter™ ammunition line are clean burning and loaded to uniform capacity for consistent shot to shot results regardless of temperature. This attention to detail provides the highest levels of accuracy and performance uniformity for the most demanding and diverse hunting situations.
I you want to reload is simple. Lets take these bullets....
https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/7mm-284-162-gr-eld-match#!/
Item #
7mm .284"
ELD® Match
.287
.670 (G1)
.338 (G7)
162 GR
Then work up a charge of varget up to 41 tor 42 grains of varget depending on what brass, your magazine and coal allows
and then will get 2700 to 2800fps depending on barrel. The best results so far from a Remington 700 blueprinted and with a 24" krieger and 1:8 twist.
Varget or R17 both very simple to work up a reload.
It all depends on what you need. Can do varmints from 110gr, deer loads with 120gr TTSX, that will hit like a 270,
Elk loads with 150-175gr like partitions or long range with 160 to 175gr including CNC solids and depending on throat and magazine situation.
What is not to like right?
Gtscotty
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I thought you were saying that the 7mm-08 load would leave the 6mm and 6.5mm offerings behind in terms of pure external ballistics. The 147gr 6.5mm ELD at similar velocities would shoot inside those 7mm loads, as would 110gr 6mm Sierra's at 3,050 fps. In terms of cutting the wind, that 7mm load is good, but not in a league by itself, the 7mm does strike an attractive balance of ballistics and power though, if you need it.
1stmarine
Member
That is a factory load for elk to work with popular twist barrels. A good load, not the best load.
The 168gr berger is also a factory load loaded with some limitations and might not work in all popular rifles due to twist.
I think this is best discussed in another thread were we can put specific bullets and loads including reloads tested.
sounds good?
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