Why the 6.5 Creedmoor and not the 30 tc?

[bme27]

I want to start by saying I am just a young hunter who is looking into some long range shooting and confused by some things I am seeing as I research and am in need of some expert advice in hunting and long range shooting with the 30 tc. This may be a dumb question to ask but I am just curious as to why the parent case for the extremely popular 6.5 Creedmoor, and the 6mm Creedmoor, never caught on. With the 30 tc shooting at the velocities of the 30-06 with the recoil of a 243, and in a short action. I get that the 30 tc was not a lot different from the great 308 Winchester or the 30-06, and that it cannot be loaded to the same velocities as factory ammo because of the special powder in Hornady’s Superformance ammo, but what did the 6.5 Creedmoor do that the .260 rem, 6.5x55 Swede and other 6.5 cartridges couldn’t? While the 30 tc actually out performs the 308 win and 30-06 in factory ammo, the 6.5 Creedmoor does not out perform the 260 rem, and gets even worse once you start handloading both the 260 rem. Other 6.5’s still do better. Now while the 30 tc cannot be reloaded to the factory performances, it does meet 308 win performances while using less powder. This is not a post to knock the 6.5 Creedmoor, I think it is a fantastic cartridge. I just fail to see why it gets all the love and the 30 tc gets absolutely no love shown to it.

 

[Goosey]

The main reason is most likely because there wasn't a 6.5 that had really taken off in North America, very much unlike the .30 caliber, and compared to the .260, the 6.5 Creedmoor started out with somewhat better long range setups in factory rifles and ammo, and it also had much better marketing.

 

[redbullitt]

I think it was all in the marketing plain and simple.

 

[Demi-human]

Because it is a six and a half and not a thirty. Seriously.

Then there is the bullets. Highish sectional density, very high ballistic coefficients for their wieght, hunting and target models.

And the rifles. Factory fresh, light wieght and set for long range, presicion and hunting.

But the cases... are efficient, small primered and the right size for a twenty six caliber bullet to get just the right speed and preserve barrel life.
To attain the highest coefficients for the thirty caliber bullets a thirty aught six is minimum. (In my opinion, though there are many three zero eight shooters that say otherwise.) And shooting a three hundred Winchester Magnum, loaded with two hundred twenty five grain bullets running at three thousand feet a second, all day? Well, most people don't like it, but I do. Bruises are cool!

 

[bme27]

All this makes sense and was the only guess I had but it’s good to have that confirmation. I don’t understand however why the tc icon did not take off, in any caliber, but especially the 30 tc. I have handled a few of those rifles and they are fantastic for hunting I would think. Now for long rang I get that the higher bc 6mm and 6.5 bullets just work better in the wind, and I believe better at 1000+ yards as they don’t tumble as quickly as 30 cal. But for 800 yards and in hunting (which is too far for me to shoot at an animal with any caliber) it should be deadly. 30 calibers are excellent killers, why not use an efficient one? I’m just confused at why this cartridge looks so good on paper, yet never got tested beyond mainstream writers.

 

[VoodooMountain]

The 6.5x55 is viewed as an old and dusty relic of yesteryear by a good number of the gun buying public due to the influx of young and newer shooters

The 260 has a few shortcomings. Namely the inability to use heavier bullets very well, hasn’t been marketed well lately, and there aren’t a lot of guns chambered in it.
The issue with heavier and slippery bullets alone killed it for the long range crowd and it is kind of a tweener for the hunting crowd.

The 6.5 creedmoor offers bench rest guys the ability to shoot long distance and it offers hunting guys a good long range medium game option without a metric European name. It can be used in the ar10 platform. Rifle choice is plentiful. Match brass and ammo are readily available. It has also been marketed well and so is the cartridge dejour.

—

And it is near to impossible to dethrone the 308 or 30-06. TC caught a lot of flack on the gun forums and in gun shops when they released the 30TC for trying to reinvent the wheel. It just doesn’t do anything the 308/ 30-06 doesn’t.

30TC is a good cartridge but it doesn’t offer 30-06 performance with 243 recoil, it is more like a 300 savage or lower end 308 ballistically in the real world from the few things I’ve seen.

So why buy a 30TC?
The rifle choice is Very limited
Brass is 3x the cost of 308
It can’t handle the heavy bullets like the 30-06 for hunting
Brass and ammo are much more expensive

 

[wahsben]

The 6.5 Creedmoor is based off of the 30TC.

 

[VoodooMountain]

The 6.5 Creedmoor is based off of the 30TC.

I think he and the rest of us are aware of that

 

[LoonWulf]

The other guys covered it pretty well. Any new .30s not a great idea in our current market. Not unless its revolutionary, and thats unlikely.

Another thing going for the 6.5s and other similar cartridges, is that they are easy to shoot well from the lower cost production guns. Especially light weight production guns.
A 6-7lb CM is comfortable and easy shoot well all day long. Even a .308 in a sub 7lb gun becomes harder to shoot well for an extended period of time.
lower the recoil impulse, the more inconsistent you can be in form while still producing decent groups.
Guys that shoot alot deal with stuff like that no problem, but alot of new shooters find that the CMs and their ilk produce better results.

It also helps that the CM delivers trajectory and wind drift bettering the slower .30s while still delivering noticably lower recoil....again making them easier to shoot.

 

[HB]

None of it matters at normal hunting ranges.

 

[taliv]

Any new .30s not a great idea in our current market. Not unless its revolutionary, and thats unlikely.

*cough* 300 Norma Mag *cough*

 

[bme27]

I think I’m missing something. If the 260 and the 6.5 Creedmoor shoot 6.5mm bullets yet the 260 has more case capacity why does the Creedmoor “out perform it” or handle the heavier bullets better? From what I understand, if you were to build two custom bench rifles, one in 260 and one in 6.5 Creedmoor, and you developed the best handloads, theoretically the 260 should our shoot the Creedmoor as it will be able to fly 100 FPS faster. Now velocity is not accuracy, but I recently read a series of articles on “How Much Does It Matter” from shooters precision blog, great read by the way, where the author pointed out that for every 25 FPS you gain, you gain .75% accuracy, giving the 260 a 1% advantage. That doesn’t mean the 260 will be better, but it has the upper hand. So, besides rifle manufacturers feeding the new hot thing, why is a Creedmoor better than a 260? What makes the casing better? If there is so much of a difference for the Creedmoor because of the case, why doesn’t the 30 tc have the same advantage over the 308? I’m sorry if I’m being a pain, I’m just confused and trying to figure out what I want my build to be and am hung up on all this.

 

[rayatphonix]

You answered one of your questions yourself. You said if you were to build 2 custom benchrest rifles... The CM performs very well in lower cost factory rifles which is often preferred for most shooters. The CM was designed for long range shooting. The 260 needs customization to reach its full potential. I have both and enjoy both and for my purposes both work well. However CM ammo is readily available from many companies. Not nearly as many choices in 260.

 

[bme27]

So is it strictly the rifles that make the difference? What if you used Tikka rifles and match ammo? I believe the CTR or the T3x comes in both cartridges.

 

[LoonWulf]

*cough* 300 Norma Mag *cough*

Touche' lol


Truth the 6.5cm isnt better than the .260 or 6.5x55, but its shorter so functions "better " from a short, say sub 2.9", mag box.
Tikkas are all long action so could be made to work equally well with all 3.

 

[stringnut]

The 30 TC performed its design function well. It made 30/06 velocity with 150 gr. Bullets in a small package. After that things kind of fell apart. It was launched in a rifle that had an action that would handle the 308. Thus no weight or length savings. Ammo is more expensive than 308 or 30/06. Brass and ammo can be difficult to find. I have never seen either locally. The people that it would probably be most interested would be handloaders. However, a quick review of loading data shows that the closest you can get to factory ammo is 100 fps. The majority of the loads are 150 fps slower or more. No one is going to pay more for to shoot a gun that weighs the same, has more expensive components, and can't even come close to factory with reloads. And last it doesn't do any thing some other 30 does just as well.

 

[Varminterror]

So is it strictly the rifles that make the difference? What if you used Tikka rifles and match ammo? I believe the CTR or the T3x comes in both cartridges.

You're largely being mislead. None of the Creedmoor's popularity has anything to do with rifle availability or ammo.

The 30tc was a niche round, a solution for a very specific problem. It did not and does not match .30-06 performance, and barely hangs with .308win performance, when loaded to similar pressure. There's no replacement for displacement - the .30-06 is a considerably larger case, and picks up about 200fps over the .30tc or more when equivalently loaded in similar barrel length. So against its class mates, the 30tc had no advantage.

In the second, the creedmoor rounds have far less recoil than the 30cal Thompson Center round. While the 6.5 and 6mm creedmoor cartridges are both no more than niche rounds too, their niche is considerably more popular right now than was that of the .30tc, and in their application, low recoil is king. Generations prior had predominantly bought rifles for hunting, where impact momentum is far more critical than it is for steel games. The modern market is much more focused on recreational plinking than hunting, so 30 cal recoil is largely unnecessary, so guys don't buy heavy hitters any more. When I was growing up, middle aged shooters would say you needed a 7mm mag for 1,000yrd shooting (old timers would say you didn't need to shoot 1,000yrds). Today, guys are reaching out farther with short action non-magnums than most guys were with belted mags 30yrs ago. The big difference, in my view, is we were focused on killing something upon arrival back then, and less so now.

Thirdly, the 6.5 and 6mm rounds beat the 30 cals for trajectory management. When guys play UKD games, or KD games of variant distance, trajectory management is a huge issue. A guy can get a 115 Dtac with a BC of .588 running about 300fps faster - and therefore considerably flatter - than the .30TC can push a 150grn bullet with a low to mid .4 BC. When running multiple targets back and forth out from 300 to 1200yrds in the same stage, that gap means a lot.

In the Fourth, the market supports them. How many factory rifles have you ever seen in .30TC? How many boxes of factory ammo did you ever see on a local shop shelf? Fantastic cartridges will die if they aren't marketed well. It's en vogue right now for guys to thumb their nose and say the Creedmoors are only popular because of marketing, but it's not really truthful to say that. Alternatively, it is VERY true to say, "if you build it, they might come, but if you don't build it, they damned sure won't." I'm not sure any cartridge has hit the market with as much manufacturing support as the 6.5 creedmoor. Guys aren't stuck with limited availability, low quality brass, we're not stuck with only a model or two of rifles from which to choose, we're not stuck special ordering rifles or ammo. It's all on the shelf. Unlike many of the other "big hype" cartridge launches in the last 30yrs or so, the creedmoors hit with great timing, and fantastic support. Good product, good placement, good timing - that adds up to good sales performance.

Finally - I mentioned performance of the .30tc against its classmates above, but I've held that discussion for the 6 and 6.5 creedmoors until this point. When the .30tc hit its niche, there were already three powerhouse cartridges dominating the 30cal market, or even 4, with a great number of other players on the field. The .30-30, 308win, .30-06, and .300wm were already standing tall above the other dozen or so cartridges with more limited popularity. The .30br, .300rum, 300h&h, 300savage, later the wsm, x54, and a gaggle of other cartridges flood the 30cal market. The 6.5creed really only had the .260rem with any popularity in the 6.5 market, there just weren't many players in its class, and the 6mm really only had the 243win to deal with. The 6.5 A-Square, 6.5-284, and x55 swede are too long for short action rifles, and run more powder, meaning less barrel life. The 7-08 is often weighed against the 6.5, but it has the same issues the 260 suffers, and it runs out of mag room AND powder capacity below the high BC, heavy weight 7mm bullets. All of the 308 family cases suffer the mag length issue - however trivial it might be, and the fact there simply weren't many others in the game left the door wide open for a short action, steep shouldered 6.5.

The fact luddites don't care for the 6 & 6.5, favoring the older cartridges somewhat like them, does not change the fact they are incredibly effective, incredibly popular, and incredibly well supported rounds.

 

[VoodooMountain]

You're largely being mislead. None of the Creedmoor's popularity has anything to do with rifle availability or ammo..

I don't think those things helped to launch it but they are certainly helping it gain momentum.

 

[bme27]

Thank you all for your help on this. Varminterror that all makes sense to me and I can accept that. I have seen two 30tc rifles, one in an encore and the other an icon and have shot the icon (very mild recoil, would be great for a youth or female hunter if the icon rifle wasn’t so heavy) but those are both tc rifles. I also see that with factory ammo the 30tc had way more competition and whether TC tried to sell the idea to to other rifle manufacturers or not it made it a tough buy to get it only from TC. Where as Hornady, who helped develop the 30tc (and then created the 6.5 Creedmoor themselves corrrct?) did a much better job selling the round to all rifle makers making it much easier for someone to buy because they could get it in their favorite rifle or from their favorite rifle manufacturer. They took a good casing and but a better flying bullet for long range shooting that has high bc’s and low recoil that is still an effective medium game cartridge. I still feel that the 30tc is an effective cartridge and should have gotten more love shown to it. The 6.5 Creedmoor hit the ground running and exploded in popularity, while the 30tc got left behind as it did not have as big of a niche to fill.

 

[Walkalong]

Generations prior had predominantly bought rifles for hunting, where impact momentum is far more critical than it is for steel games. The modern market is much more focused on recreational plinking than hunting, so 30 cal recoil is largely unnecessary, so guys don't buy heavy hitters any more.

I think there is a lot to this. Different needs/wants/applications.

 

[taliv]

Now velocity is not accuracy, but I recently read a series of articles on “How Much Does It Matter” from shooters precision blog, great read by the way, where the author pointed out that for every 25 FPS you gain, you gain .75% accuracy, giving the 260 a 1% advantage. That doesn’t mean the 260 will be better, but it has the upper hand. So, besides rifle manufacturers feeding the new hot thing, why is a Creedmoor better than a 260? What makes the casing better?

keep in mind more is not always better. the 6BR and 6Dasher dominate the mid range benchrest. they're way slower than the 243win.
and the 6.5x47 lapua is way more popular and wins a lot more PRS matches than 6.5CM and 260rem combined. (actually at the moment dasher is winning a lot of PRS matches too)

it's not just the low recoil and flat shooting varminterror mentioned, but it's also consistency in velocity and accuracy over hundreds or thousands of rounds. "inherent accuracy" of cartridges has been fiercely debated here over the past decade. lots of people will show some 5 round one hole groups from crazy cartridges like 7,62x39 to prove that anything can be accurate... but for some mysterious reason, the cartridges that always seem to win match after match after match have a few things in common. the 6.5CM has more of these features than 260/30-06/308 etc.

Generations prior had predominantly bought rifles for hunting, where impact momentum is far more critical than it is for steel games. The modern market is much more focused on recreational plinking than hunting, so 30 cal recoil is largely unnecessary, so guys don't buy heavy hitters any more. When I was growing up, middle aged shooters would say you needed a 7mm mag for 1,000yrd shooting (old timers would say you didn't need to shoot 1,000yrds). Today, guys are reaching out farther with short action non-magnums than most guys were with belted mags 30yrs ago. The big difference, in my view, is we were focused on killing something upon arrival back then, and less so now.

just my opinion, but a lot of that was also cultural. same people had enormous engines in their cars, hand cannons etc. afaik they were still mostly shooting deer at 30 yards in heavy brush lol.

Touche' lol


Truth the 6.5cm isnt better than the .260 or 6.5x55, but its shorter so functions "better " from a short, say sub 2.9", mag box.
Tikkas are all long action so could be made to work equally well with all 3.

i had no idea tikkas were long action. that's interesting. that would make those much better. huh.

 

[444]

I agree that marketing had a lot to do with it. I don't just mean advertising but the whole concept of being able to buy really accurate, off the shelf rifles along with really accurate factory ammo for it: and it was readily available. None of this is custom, none of it is something you have to order from some boutique shop. None of it requires some long wait while it is built......

One day last spring I decided I wanted to get into long range rifle shooting. I had always wanted to to it, but for years I didn't have the time. Later, after I moved to Ohio, I had the time but didn't have anywhere to do it. Eventually I met the right people who took me to a couple places where you could shoot out to 1000 yards at one of them and 1200 yards at another one of them.

So now, I start looking at rifles. I did a little research and saw what was popular for this kind of shooting and decided that I wanted something in 6mm or 6.5mm. I went to a store to look at rifles and I was willing to buy anything in .243, 6.5 Creed, .260............ The first thing I see is a rifle chambered in 6.5 Creed on sale for a great price. I bought it. I turned around and there was a shelf full of factory ammo: Hornady loaded with their 140 grain ELD Match bullets.

Because of the popularity of the 6.5 Creed, you can buy all kinds of high end reloading equipment, barrels, rifles...... . There is also all kinds of information available about the 6.5 Creed because of it's popularity.

I keep saying this in all kinds of threads but; there are thousands of various cartridges available to choose from. Pick any one of them and you can instantly find another one that outperforms it in some way: it's faster or it shoots heavier bullets.........or whatever. At some point you have to just say, this is the one I am going with and then take the ball and run with it. For me, I see the advantage of jumping on the bandwagon of something that is very popular, has proven itself to be excellent for what you intend to do with it, and everything about it is readily available. You can choose to swim upstream and go with something unusual or different; there is nothing wrong with that. But for me, I am not really interested in that.

 

[jmr40]

Short answer.

The 6.5 Creedmoor's best (BC) aerodynamic bullets are 140-147 gr and can be loaded to leave the muzzle at around 2700 fps for around 12 ft lbs recoil. To get 30 caliber bullets with the same BC you have to go up to 200-210 gr and you can't shoot them fast enough to be beneficial in anything but a 300 magnum, at 30+ ft lbs recoil.

 

[jmr40]

but what did the 6.5 Creedmoor do that the .260 rem, 6.5x55 Swede and other 6.5 cartridges couldn’t?

the 6.5 Creedmoor does not out perform the 260 rem, and gets even worse once you start handloading both the 260 rem.

The 260 inspired the 6.5 Creed and it does in fact hold more powder and with the best loads is 30ish fps faster. But the slightly longer case limits you to shorter, less aerodynamic bullets that will fit in magazines and rifle chambers. OR requires ammo to be loaded longer than spec and fed into custom rifles with longer magazines and chambers.

The 6.5 Creed solves both of those problems with off the shelf ammo and rifles at reasonable prices. The 260 had the potential to be a great round, but Remington didn't market the round correctly, nor offer factory ammo for it. They could have foreseen the potential and modified the rifles, but chose not to. The Success of the 6.5 Creed is a combination of a great round and smart marketing. With tack driving rifles like the Ruger Predator selling for $350 and match grade ammo capable of staying supersonic out to 2000 yards readily available and priced under $30 per box people will buy the Creed.

 

[<*(((><]

To be transparent: I don't have a 6.5 Creedmoor, nor have I ever shot one.

But the way I understand it, it's claim to fame over the other 6.5's is that part of it's design was to fit long high BC bullets in AR10 magazines. I've been told that when using high BC bullets it's case design closes the powder volume gap between it and the .260 Rem., and they claim that the steeper shoulder angle with net you more fps then a shallower shoulder design.

Correct me if I'm wrong.