Why keep bringing up the 2nd Amendment?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Well, when you use phrases like "War of Northern Aggression", I know where YOU'RE coming from.

Off topic, but I often wonder if my typically non-resistance oriented Northern friends ever consider the ethical dilemma of glorifying an aggressive action against the South that caused more than a million casualties.

More on point, let's not allow that particular red herring you threw out there to derail the question: does an armed populace deter illegitimate use of authority/force, or doesn't it? That's the question at hand.
 
Well, when you use phrases like "War of Northern Aggression", I know where YOU'RE coming from.
Point being?

I don't hide behind rhetoric. Your people call it a war for liberation: That was a byproduct.

It was a war to regain control of southern states that refused to be controlled...which is a very real scenario if Oby tries to take our teeth away.
 
The Japanese in WWII, capable of invading the mainland West coast, did not do so BECAUSE of our armed population. THey chose not to occupy Hawaii for the same reason.

Turn the questionable humor of the Onion around to your own position. What makes it alright to infringe the rights of those who would stand up in arms to protect their right to badmouth those you disagree with?

When 1 right is infringed, all rights are infringed. They are all interrelated. There is absolutely nothing between your right to free speach and restrictions upon it but the certainty that we can and will throw them down if they move to block the press. 2A protects YOU.

The Second amendment is YOUR right as much as it is ours. Just because you fear it out of misunderstanding, does not make that fact any less so. Why would you advocate the restriction of ANY of YOUR rights?
Your comment about the Japanese not invading Hawaii or the mainland because of privately armed citizens is one that I've seen earlier here. Of all the "historical tyranny" arguments, it may be the most absurd.

Japan didn't invade Hawaii because they lost the Battle of Midway, which meant they did not have the air power or supply lines to support an invasion. That's all. That's the only reason. They didn't invade the mainland United States because (a) that was never their war aim and (b) we were way far away- no supply lines to support an invasion. Japan invaded plenty of countries nearby them in which the populace had guns, including Manila, Singapore, Malaysia, China, etc. The guns didn't stop them from invading.

Seriously, there are a lot of military people in this forum, by all accounts. I'm surprised they let this nonsense go on.
 
It's a good theoretical question, the native American tribes: would they have preferred to have been stripped of their weapons in the first instance and collectively been herded onto reservations, or given the opportunity to fight and be massacred nevertheless?

Anyways, your point about "misinterpreting proper govt. authority as tyranny" is beside the point. Let's not obfuscate. The question at hand is "given illegitimate and tyrannical local authorities who are systematically oppressing local civil rights, can or has an armed populace resisted effectively". Earlier you have indicated that such a scenario "has never happened". Do you stand by this?
I'd have to go back and look, but what I believe I wrote is that there has never been such a situation in which PRIVATE GUN OWNERSHIP was the key to the resistance. I stand by that, yes.
 
One of the biggest issues with mag capacity bans and self-defense is that the person defending themselves doesnt determine when, where or how the attack occurs. They can only respond. So if criminal gets to not only chose all the important factors in an attack, why would somebody what to also give criminals the advantage in the amount of fire (criminals having more rounds in a magazine) than the law-abiding citizen who was the victim of the attack. Since the victim is already at the disadvantage in terms of timing and location of an attack, shouldn't a person have to right to counter an attack as best they can?

So basically since a victim of an attack does not chose the timing, location, or even the duration of an attack (the attack isnt over until the criminal decides to stop), a victim should and does have to right to counter the attack with what they believe is the best method. Some people like to have a handgun with 17+ rounds, other like an AR-15 with a 30 round mag. Standard and even high capacity magazines give a victim the ability to counter an attack while eliminating other things that impair their ability to defend themselves such as reloading. If there are multiple criminals, then they this is even more important.

+1, and a point I've tried to make in the adjacent magazine thread, but one which received no other response than "I reject the personal defense argument, because I believe that most of you that own high caliber magazines do so not for defensive purposes, but because you enjoy owning them- in short, for personal pleasure.". (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8689032&postcount=61)
 
I wrote is that there has never been such a situation in which PRIVATE GUN OWNERSHIP was the key to the resistance. I stand by that, yes.

Despite the evidence of the Battle of Athens, to name just the obvious recent one?
 
What I don't buy is that private gun ownership deters tyranny in any way

Well, yeah...
droneCOLOR.gif


But if the above event ever happened in real life, what do you think would happen afterwards?

True, a tactical nuclear strike trumps a single-shot shotgun. But that would be mutual/national suicide.
 
I don't think the Civil War is off-topic. IMO, it's central to the discussion. We disagree as to whether or not private gun ownership is necessary to fight tyranny. Part of that debate centers around the question of what tyranny actually is. In the most famous example in American history, the people who believed they were confronting tyranny got it wrong- they weren't (at least IMO). That is a vital point of my argument.
 
+1, and a point I've tried to make in the adjacent magazine thread, but one which received no other response than "I reject the personal defense argument, because I believe that most of you that own high caliber magazines do so not for defensive purposes, but because you enjoy owning them- in short, for personal pleasure.". (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8689032&postcount=61)
It's a separate issue than the tyranny one we're currently engaged in.

But it would really help me if you or somebody else here could provide me with a real life example where somebody died in a home invasion because 10 rounds weren't enough. Such an example might serve to make me more sympathetic to your POV.
 
I don't think the Civil War is off-topic. IMO, it's central to the discussion. We disagree as to whether or not private gun ownership is necessary to fight tyranny. Part of that debate centers around the question of what tyranny actually is. In the most famous example in American history, the people who believed they were confronting tyranny got it wrong- they weren't (at least IMO). That is a vital point of my argument.
What, pray tell, is YOUR definition of tyranny?

What must we endure before Timmy says we can be worried or concerned?

What has to happen, or be under threat, before Timmy gets the hint and comes to Mustards house to fight for his rights?
 
I'd have to go back and look, but what I believe I wrote is that there has never been such a situation in which PRIVATE GUN OWNERSHIP was the key to the resistance. I stand by that, yes.
Also, my original comments implied a macro level situation, even if I didn't state it outright.

But I have to also point out that today's society is much less isolated than even 1946. I strongly doubt that, with 24 hour news and the speed of our current military forces, a "Battle of Athens" scenario would be possible today or in the future.
 
provide me with a real life example where somebody died in a home invasion because 10 rounds weren't enough

That's a silly request, and almost impossible to demonstrate simply because we have no way of knowing what might have happened. However, we can certainly demonstrate that having a high capacity has aided in deterring and incapacitating criminals. The Beckwith Incident immediately comes to mind:

http://www.afn.org/~guns/ayoob.html
 
That's a silly request, and almost impossible to demonstrate simply because we have no way of knowing what might have happened. However, we can certainly demonstrate that having a high capacity has aided in deterring and incapacitating criminals. The Beckwith Incident immediately comes to mind:

http://www.afn.org/~guns/ayoob.html
Most wont discuss this anyway, because many times such shootings, justified are not, may still be under judiciary scrutiny.
 
That's a silly request, and almost impossible to demonstrate simply because we have no way of knowing what might have happened. However, we can certainly demonstrate that having a high capacity has aided in deterring and incapacitating criminals. The Beckwith Incident immediately comes to mind:

http://www.afn.org/~guns/ayoob.html
I'm sure there are plenty of examples like this one. But there's a big difference between "aiding" and "necessary". You guys have made, as one of your arguments, that high caliber magazines are necessary to defend against home invasion. Intuitively, I have trouble buying that. And unless you can provide real life examples to the contrary, then intuition is all I have to go on.

As an aside: it seems pretty stupid to me that someone would rob a gun store. I guess they figured there was nobody there at the time, but still...
 
Enjoying the conversation, but I have to run out. Will try to post later!
 
There are many korean store owners in LA during the riots that had AKs and ARs that had high cap mags that absolutely saved their lives and ther families lives.
 
I'm sure there are plenty of examples like this one. But there's a big difference between "aiding" and "necessary". You guys have made, as one of your arguments, that high caliber magazines are necessary to defend against home invasion. Intuitively, I have trouble buying that. And unless you can provide real life examples to the contrary, then intuition is all I have to go on.

As an aside: it seems pretty stupid to me that someone would rob a gun store. I guess they figured there was nobody there at the time, but still...
Real live soldiers wear body armor, most of which is fairly apt at stopping penetration of high power rifle rounds at distance. Pistol rounds or rimfire well aimed would still fail.

Why is this important? Because those that don't join us are the enemy, who may be armored.

What the hell is a high caliber magazine? I hope you mean higher caliber rounds.
If you mean hi cap mags, if you've multiple intruders, what does a round a piece equate to if you don't kill or immobilize immediately?
 
Timmy, you say you are asking for proof that privately owned arms has prevented a takeover by any government. Well, look no further than out your door. We've not been taken over by tyranny or other countries in over 200 years. Look at the history of mankind and it is littered with nations expanding their boundaries by marching their armies thru the populace to take over their land and assets. The Crusades, the Roman Empire, Gengis Khan, Marco Polo, King George, Napolean, Hitler, etc. The list is endless. You can also count the new Americans running roughshod over the Native Americans.

So, the point is to prove something prevented something from happening can only be proved by showing nothing did happen inspite of previous history. We have prevented tyranny and we have prevented being taken over by the fact that we are still a free nation today. What more proof do you need?
 
I've been around guns for 40 years. I'm still scared of them.


I've been around circular saws for 40 years, I'm scared of them too. My uncle nearly cut his hand off - he wasn't scared enough, but he is NOW.


I ride a bike for about 3000 miles per year - I'm scared of semi trucks and cars and big-loud pickup trucks.


I'm still scared of heights, even just putting up the Christmas lights on the roof gives me white knuckles.

Fear is natural, but we are thinking beings, we can control our fears.

Excellent post! Same here.

I consider the dangers of driving on the roads every day.

It's a matter of not trying to legislate your fears on others.....and of perspective.

People are familiar with cars....use them every day. If not familiar with guns...... <fill in the blank>. And we all know cars are much deadlier and certainly kill more kids than guns.

And the govt is not here to give you 'peace of mind.' You have to work at that yourself. Be responsible for yourself and your family. Expecting the govt or police to keep you safe when you need it...it's not even their jobs.
 
I don't think the Civil War is off-topic.
It's extremely ON-topic.

The history of gun control in North America is the history of violent White supremacism and the desire to disarm intended victims, be they Indians, Blacks, Chinese, etc.

Slavery and Jim Crow era gun control laws were intended SPECIFICALLY to disarm Blacks in order to provide a "safe working environment" for slave catchers, kidnappers, the Klan and the like.

The 1919 race riot in Chicago wasn't the massacre that the first Mayor Daley and his pals hoped it would be precisely because Blacks shot back. My grandmother was there and saw it.
 
One of the biggest issues with mag capacity bans and self-defense is that the person defending themselves doesnt determine when, where or how the attack occurs. They can only respond. So if criminal gets to not only chose all the important factors in an attack, why would somebody what to also give criminals the advantage in the amount of fire (criminals having more rounds in a magazine) than the law-abiding citizen who was the victim of the attack. Since the victim is already at the disadvantage in terms of timing and location of an attack, shouldn't a person have to right to counter an attack as best they can?

So basically since a victim of an attack does not chose the timing, location, or even the duration of an attack (the attack isnt over until the criminal decides to stop), a victim should and does have to right to counter the attack with what they believe is the best method. Some people like to have a handgun with 17+ rounds, other like an AR-15 with a 30 round mag. Standard and even high capacity magazines give a victim the ability to counter an attack while eliminating other things that impair their ability to defend themselves such as reloading. If there are multiple criminals, then they this is even more important.

Nice!
 
I wrote is that there has never been such a situation in which PRIVATE GUN OWNERSHIP was the key to the resistance. I stand by that, yes.
Despite the evidence of the Battle of Athens, to name just the obvious recent one?

Ok, do I have bad info, or did the majority of the weapons used in the Battle of Athens not come from the National Guard's armory?

-MW
 
I'm sure there are plenty of examples like this one. But there's a big difference between "aiding" and "necessary". You guys have made, as one of your arguments, that high caliber magazines are necessary to defend against home invasion. Intuitively, I have trouble buying that. And unless you can provide real life examples to the contrary, then intuition is all I have to go on.

As an aside: it seems pretty stupid to me that someone would rob a gun store. I guess they figured there was nobody there at the time, but still...
10 bullets fired at 3 home invaders while you scramble to get your family to safety? While they are firing at you?

Wow, I need to marry Jack Bauer.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top