why no love for grip safeties?

[sltintexas]

Why do some people not like grip safeties? Is a murphy law type of thing and another point of failure. are they really that unreliable?

I am looking at some springfield xd subcompacts and the grip saftey seems like a benefit to me. Not too comfortable carrying condition0 yet. Maybe as my carrry experience matures I'll get more comfy with it, but not yet.

 

[PT1911]

they are very reliable on a reliable gun... problem is, people dont seem to practice enough using them and then complain that they have misfires because they grip the gun incorrectly and do not depress the safety fully... at least, this is what I have seen.... with the appropriate grip, they work extremely reliably...

 

[rcmodel]

+1
There is no draw-back.

It is something Glock and other "trigger Safety" guns should have had from day one. It would go far to prevent the old holster strap or jacket draw-sting in the trigger ND's that have happened.

rc

 

[WRGADog]

I like grip safeties

I like having both, and view the grip safety as just another precaution preventing accidental discharge by reason of improper handling of a firearm. However, no safety can substitute for proper handling and caution by the operator. Safeties won't cure stupid.

 

[007BondJamesBond007]

My Sister was a nurse working DEA, FBI at their training academy at Quantico, Virginia. She has treated many a gun accident from Glocks. Most were shot in the foot while drawing from the holster or putting the Glock back in the holster. A grip safety would have prevented the trigger getting caught by the holtser. I am sure i am going to get the Glock people upset but the fact is the gun went off the agents got hurt. I am not agaist Glocks and will like to own one someday.

 

[Jbabbler]

I like them on my XD but many of my friends experience problems when firing my gun.. I explain that they aren't gripping it right but the reply is almost always "Well, I wouldn't want to have to worry about a perfect grip in a defensive situation". I see both sides. I prefer the safety on my Steyrs the best.

 

[sohcgt2]

It is something Glock and other "trigger Safety" guns should have had from day one. It would go far to prevent the old holster strap or jacket draw-sting in the trigger ND's that have happened.

I may be wrong here but ND are caused by "negligence" not by design features. Suggesting extra safeties would stop ND's is suggesting it's the guns fault it went off and that is just a small step away from suggesting that the guns are commiting the crimes. Negligent Discharges are the result of careless handling and I am unsympathetic to those who have experienced ND's. My suggestion to them would be use more care or stay away from guns. Education and attention to detail with a modicum of excersized care are the cure for ND's not additional mechanical safeties.

That said, I like grip safeties as long as they extend high enough to not pinch the web between my index finger and thumb.

 

[murph50]

I have no problems with grip safeties. Just another feature that is part of the tool.
My SA XD9 sub comp has been in condition 1 for over 3 years. It is with me almost every day either OWB, fanny pack or EDC backpack. Never had a single problem. When reholstering the gun I just back my grip up a little so the safety is not depressed.
Works for me

 

[AK103K]

They are fine if they work and you know for a fact that they do work. I've had a few brand new 1911's over the years that didnt, so just dont take them for granted until you can prove it to yourself.

Are they necessary, no, not really. Lots of guns dont have them and its not an issue. Proper handling, regardless of what safeties the gun has or doesnt is the issue. Unless something is broken, they usually dont go off by themselves, even while being handled.

 

[rcmodel]

but ND are caused by "negligence" not by design features.

I agree to a point.

But there is a very fine point between negligence, and holding a struggling suspect on the ground, while you are on an adrenalin rush from fighting him.

And trying to quickly holster your gun so you can get the hand-cuffs out.

Times like that, I'm not 100% sure we should call a snagged Glock trigger negligence.

rc

 

[10-Ring]

I'm okay w/ the grip safety -- it's the mag disconnect I'm not a fan of

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

When you reholster a pistol, isn't your hand on the grip, thereby already deactivating the grip safety (if it has one)? How would a grip safety have prevented a AD/ND due to trigger snagging?

I view grip safeties (and magazine disconnects) as a benign feature, not hurting anything, but not helping either.

 

[rcmodel]

Well, there was a proven track record of the mag safety's saving officers lives during gun struggles when the IL State police first adopted the S&W Model 39.

They have fell from favor, and people either love'm or hate'm.
Most have been brainwashed to hate'm.

But they did work to prevent cops getting shot with their own guns in several instances.

How would a grip safety have prevented a AD/ND due to trigger snagging?

Because most require a firm firing grip on the gun to disengage. You can train to relax your grip when holstering very easily, and it becomes muscle memory to do so.


rc

 

[ArmedBear]

There is no draw-back.

It is something Glock and other "trigger Safety" guns should have had from day one. It would go far to prevent the old holster strap or jacket draw-sting in the trigger ND's that have happened.

Couldn't agree more.

The XD has the grab-and-shoot ability of a Glock, while drastically reducing the odds of a discharge when the gun isn't actually deployed. I have NEVER once had it fail to work. Part of the grip safety is proper ergonomics. With even half-decent design, you don't have to worry about depressing it.

A significant added benefit of the grip safety on the XD is that you can do a "press check" with no concern about ejecting a round or taking the gun out of battery. The way it's designed, if you don't depress the grip safety, you can just pull back on the slide as hard as you want, and it will open just far enough to show if there's a round in the chamber. Let go, and the gun goes back into battery.

The original 1911 was designed when there was no such word as "ergonomics" and shouldn't be the final standard by which any design feature is judged.

OTOH I am often astounded that the Glock didn't have a grip safety from day 1. It's not like nobody had ever thought of a grip safety.

 

[R.W.Dale]

When you reholster a pistol, isn't your hand on the grip, thereby already deactivating the grip safety (if it has one)? How would a grip safety have prevented a AD/ND due to trigger snagging?

I view grip safeties (and magazine disconnects) as a benign feature, not hurting anything, but not helping either.

Precicley a grip safety is the most redundant thing in the world of firearms.

98.9999% ND's simply don't happen if a gun isn't in someones hand, and what children is disengaged the moment you pick up a firearm or draw it? That's right the stupid grip "faslesenseofsecurity"

I like how virtually NOTHING in the past 90yrs had a grip safety. Till the m1911 fashion bug hit then all at once everything should have one.

 

[rcmodel]

Well the 1911 also had a real safety, unlike the Glock.

As Jeff Copper pointed out:
Putting the safety on the trigger is like engraving the combination to a safe on the safe door.

rc

 

[R.W.Dale]

Well the 1911 also had a real safety, unlike the Glock.

As Jeff Copper pointed out:
Putting the safety on the trigger is like engraving the combination to a safe on the safe door.

rc

is this thread about Glocks or grip safteys?

Never fails

When all conscious reason fails, out comes the useless Jeff Cooper quotes

 

[TheVirginian]

It's just ergonomics for me. I'm fine with it if it works, feels the same or at least really good, and it doesn't cause malfunctions. I am not used to it though and with a 1911, it is a little bit awkward for me. I got used to a Hi-Power which I could feel comfortable operating with one hand to decock if necessary after cleaning to feel the action without actually dry firing. So if it doesn't get in the way and it's a hammerless, DAO design, then it's a non-issue for me.
-Bill

 

[ArmedBear]

krochus, you're hardly guilty of any conscious reason in this thread, though.

There's nothing conscious about the zombie refrain that repeats: a Glock is perfectly safe, a Glock is perfectly safe. The trigger is the only safety device you need, the trigger is the only safety device you need.

You say that no gun in 90 years had a grip safety?

Well, many those guns weren't even drop safe, but be that as it may.

The most significant factor you're deliberately ignoring is that these guns had some sort of manual safety, or they were DA/SA, or, most often, BOTH.

Sure, P38, CZ75 and all the guns they spawned don't have grip safeties. They are DA/SA guns with manual safeties. They bear very little functional resemblance to a modern striker pistol with no manual safety, no grip safety, and nothing to cock.

Very few semiauto firearms in that time period have been designed so that there's no manual safety, no hammer to cock or decock, and pulling the trigger with a relatively light pull will always fire the gun.

Love Glocks or not, where's the "conscious reason"?

 

[Dan Crocker]

I don't have an issue with them...or without them, either!

 

[R.W.Dale]

Armedbear repeat after me

This thread is NOT about Glocks

This thread is NOT about Glocks

This thread is NOT about Glocks


I'm not the one who has to trash Glocks in order to derail the discussion about the superfluous nature of the grip safety. I'm not advocating Glocks, I'm not trashing them either. I only even mention them in the context that the Cooperites cannot seem to discuss the word "Grip saftey" without mentioning the word Glock a minimum of 6 times in the same paragraph.

You mention drop safe, That right there is the ONLY reason you could construe the need for a grip safety. BUT this is the 21st century. If as a gun designer you cannot make a model drop safe with out a grip safety they don't belong in the industry.

Even the prophet himself JMB eliminated the grip safety from his later designs

 

[sohcgt2]

I agree to a point.

But there is a very fine point between negligence, and holding a struggling suspect on the ground, while you are on an adrenalin rush from fighting him.

And trying to quickly holster your gun so you can get the hand-cuffs out.

Times like that, I'm not 100% sure we should call a snagged Glock trigger negligence.

I would

There is never a reason to hurry and re-holster any weapon. If you feel you need to hurry and re-holster I suggest that perhaps the fight is not yet over. You should wait until sufficient help arrives to reholster safely. Further your scenario suggests you are aware of the possibilty of draw string discharge of certain firearms so to dress in clothing with drawstrings while carrying these firearms would be negligent. Additionaly your scenario suggests that less than leathal action may have been a better response to this specific threat since it did not terminate leathally. In any case re-holstering is done slowly after the fight not hurriedly during the fight. So your example still exhibits a brake from trained response and therefore negligence.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Interestingly, someone (Novak?) offers an accessory for 1911s that is essentially a blank grip safety - it takes the place of it and has the same profile, but does not function as one.

 

[sohcgt2]

is this thread about Glocks or grip safteys?

Never fails

When all conscious reason fails, out comes the useless Jeff Cooper quotes

Agreed, on Colonel Cooper and on the topic but any time the topic is safeties (grip, thumb, or other) I think Glocks come up because the only external safety they have is the trigger safety. Just my thought on why the Glock gets mentioned.

Glock Glock Glock, with the one in your quote I've met the minimum requirement.

 

[rcmodel]

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