Why not more companies making slim DA/SA hammer fired pistols?

[The Lone Haranguer]

Although not really slim, SIG-Sauer makes a compact called the P224, as part of a wide range of DA/SA/hammer-fired models. I would venture to say they are the largest manufacturer of such pistols, only having one polymer/striker-fired in the lineup, the P250.

 

[easyg]

I don't think it's really an issue between striker vs hammer so much as it's an issue between DA/SA vs other trigger systems.

Most folks that I know prefer a consistent trigger-pull, from the first shot to the last shot.

 

[Weevil]

You can get a consistent trigger pull from a DA/SA, you just cock the hammer before you shoot.


Admittedly this does require some conscious effort and motor skills at a critical and high stress moment.

And according to court rulings in several police shootings, cocking the hammer somehow implies intent to shoot or kill or some such nonsense. These rulings however are one of the reasons that most law-enforcement agencies required their officers to switch over to DAO triggers.

With a DA/SA you have the option of hard first pull to prevent an accidental discharge during a high stres moment, or switching over to a really nice light trigger if there is the time or need to take aim for an accurate shot.

Most striker fired DAO triggers are a compromise between the two, not as stiff and long as a true DA trigger but not as short and quick as an SA. So basically you get a consistently mediocre trigger pull.


That being said the only pistols I currently carry for CCW are DAO pistols. A consistent trigger pull and no need to do anything but pull the trigger in a split second is a comforting thought to me.

 

[Kiln]

You're getting around to the issue there. DA/SA is falling out of favor. The preference is just to avoid the changing of the pull weight between shots.

There are still people that like the action type, and its not flawed to any serious degree, but the majority of consumers and law enforcement seem have been trending to striker fired designs (or DAO designs) for the better part of 3 decades now. A lot of the DA/SA designs that are still popular today have been around for a good long while - there are some new ones coming on the market but not a lot.



There are millions of striker fired guns being carried daily. Nearly every law enforcement officer in the nation carries a striker fired gun. In the 25-30 years that they've been common on the market, I don't think I've EVER heard of one just "going off". Trust me, the design is safe. Even if sear were to fail releasing the striker every striker fired gun I'm aware of has a firing pin block that still wouldn't let it touch a live round unless the trigger was pulled).

I agree completely. I've got all kinds of guns with different action types but in a defensive gun, I want a consistent trigger pull. If I'm carrying a DA/SA I want it to be something I can carry cocked and locked.

This is why I'm amazed that the US government went with the Beretta again. I guess cost trumps all sometimes.

 

[MCMXI]

but they are rather dated designs now and technology has moved us in a different direction.

There's nothing new about striker fired pistols either. The Ortgies 7.65 mm striker fired pistol is almost 100 years old. The Borchardt is over 130 years old.

 

[Sam1911]

There's nothing new about striker fired pistols either. The Ortgies 7.65 mm striker fired pistol is almost 100 years old. The Borchardt is over 130 years old.

I actually didn't say the technology is NEW. I said the current trend is moving us in that direction. Call DA/SA an evolutionary dead-end if you like. There's very little truly "new" under the sun.

 

[Billy Shears]

There's nothing new about striker fired pistols either. The Ortgies 7.65 mm striker fired pistol is almost 100 years old. The Borchardt is over 130 years old.

One thing about them is new: the "partially cocked" striker. Previous striker-fired designs were either true single actions, like the Ortgies or the Mauser M1914 or the Borchardt or the Luger, in which the striker was held at the fully cocked position, and released by the trigger press; or true double actions, like the H&K VP70, or the little-known Thomas .45, where the striker was uncocked, and the mainspring under no tension, necessitating a long, heavy trigger pull to first cock and then release the striker.

Most modern striker-fired pistols take after the Glock in having the striker partially retracted, and the mainspring under some tension, but not enough to fire round if a mechanical failure should allow the striker to fly forward from that position. The trigger press then draws back the striker the rest of the way before releasing it. This easily allows a reasonably light, short trigger pull, say between 4 and 6 pounds, which is ideal for a self-defense pistol. Such a trigger can have a much shorter pull and reset, as well as being lighter than a true double action, and at the same time not be so light and short as to make negligent discharges too likely. Most shooters today see it as the ideal compromise.

 

[easyg]

With a DA/SA you have the option of hard first pull to prevent an accidental discharge during a high stres moment,

And herein lies the problem with the DA/SA system:

Some folks rely upon it to prevent an unintended discharge....
when they should have kept their finger off the trigger till the target was in their sights and they were prepared to shoot.

 

[MCMXI]

And herein lies the problem with the DA/SA system:

Some folks rely upon it to prevent an unintended discharge....
when they should have kept their finger off the trigger till the target was in their sights and they were prepared to shoot.

Who are the "some folks" you refer to?

 

[easyg]

Anyone who believes that a long heavy DA trigger-pull means that it's okay to keep their finger on the trigger with no target in their sights and no deliberate intention to shoot said target.

 

[Weevil]

Well the problem is they have the target in their sights and the gun aimed and the light trigger gets pulled unintentionally due to adrenalin rush or extreme stress.

There was a video of a police woman who was covering her partner as he handcuffed a suspect on the ground. In the heat of the moment she accidentally fires the pistol just missing the suspect and her partner by inches.

As I recall it was a Glock she was holding.

This is the reason some PDs like New York reqire a heavier trigger spring in their issued Glocks.

 

[shooter_from_show-me]

CZ Shadow the new slim line

I was going to say CZ Phantom. Love carrying mine with some Cajun Gun Works parts installed and polishing the action some it is a very nice shooter.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

[MCMXI]

And herein lies the problem with the DA/SA system:

Anyone who believes that a long heavy DA trigger-pull means that it's okay to keep their finger on the trigger with no target in their sights and no deliberate intention to shoot said target.

Bad technique is bad technique regardless of the system. It's not the fault of a DA/SA trigger that "some folks" have their finger on the trigger when they shouldn't. "Some folks" have had an ND attempting to disassemble a GLOCK because you have to pull the trigger to disassemble ... so is GLOCK a problem too because some idiot put a hole in his thigh.

 

[Orion8472]

Thanks for the great read, guys. I have decided to stick with the eventual release of the 9mm XDs. I examined the 45acp version over the weekend and am comfortable with the mechanism. It feels good in my hand and has a good trigger pull. So, . . . the [eventual] XDs in 9mm will be the gun I will carry.

Until then, I'll just keep carrying my old F.I. Industries Model D 380acp.

 

[Batty67]

If CZ made a 2075 RAMI single-stack, everything exactly the same as for double-stack 9mm BS, except thinner, I'd be 100% good to go. I really like my CZ RAMI BD, but it is chunkier than I'd like.

 

[Orion8472]

My brother has the Rami. He likes it. I'm okay with it. I find it WAY too fat for my carry needs. Seems that the bore axis is a bit higher than the other 75 models.

But, if they made a thin single stack, or even an Shield style of semi-staggard magazine, . . . I would be interested in that as well. I doubt that will happen, though.

 

[JustinJ]

You can get a consistent trigger pull from a DA/SA, you just cock the hammer before you shoot.


Admittedly this does require some conscious effort and motor skills at a critical and high stress moment.

Unless one has a unique anatomy this isn't possible to do while maintaining a proper grip. I initially bought my HKP2000sk bc DA/SA appealed to me. Now i'm in the process of deciding which LE DAO version i will convert to. To draw, cock and fire will always be slower than just drawing and shooting.

HK, like FN, has stayed with DA/SA with DAO as an available option. I think the Beretta Storm is DA/SA as well. It seems Europeans may still favor DA/SA.

 

[Landric]

The Star Ultrastar was a 9x19 polymer frame single-stack compact available back in the 90's. Good luck finding one now.



I always wanted the all metal, SA only, .45 ACP version, the Firestar IIRC. I never did get one.

I suppose I am starting to be "old", having turned 40 this year. I grew up in the 80's when the Beretta 92 was one of "the" guns. My first carry gun (before I was a cop) was a Beretta 92FS Compact. I bought my first several handguns before the 1994 ban, and at the time there were not a lot of small carry guns available, not in "service" calibers anyway.

My first duty gun was a Beretta 92, and I wasn't issued a striker-fired gun until 2004. I've always been a fan of, and expect I always will be a fan of, DA/SA metal frame pistols. I have my share of striker fired guns with polymer frames, and while I appreciate their functionality, I don't enjoy them as much as DA/SA metal pistols, nor do I find them to be better weapons.

I spent a lot of time shooting my Beretta 92s, and I got to the point where I didn't even notice the transition from DA to SA. My finger and mind were trained for it, it was a complete non-issue. I can think of at least one person who is alive today because I was carrying a Beretta 92 and not a Glock, he pulled a toy gun out of his waistband (I think in an effort to get me to shoot him) and as I was pulling the DA trigger of my Beretta I realized his "gun" was a toy. If I had been carrying a Glock, 1911, or some other short trigger weapon I would have shot him. It was very close at is was.

If I were to pick a 9mm duty gun today, it would be a Beretta 92G Centurion. The one thing I don't like about the 92 series is the slide mounted safety, and the G models dispense with that. If I was to pick any duty gun, it would be the most recent version of the S&W 4566TSW with a decocker only and the integral frame rail. Both are DA/SA, and sadly, I don't think either is still in production.

 

[tipoc]

Why not more companies making slim DA/SA hammer fired pistols?

How slim were you thinking of? What size gun?

tipoc

 

[Orion8472]

No more than an inch wide, . . . . . and closer to .8" would be better.

 

[tipoc]

What calibers were you considering?

tipoc

 

[Orion8472]

I was wanting to have at least 9mm. Currently carry a 380acp and was wanting to have a more "potent" round.

If I were going to stick with 380acp, I would just look to get a Bersa CC 380, . . . but would rather go 9mm.

 

[18DAI]

The next generation of shooters appears very willing to accept firearms we older shooters would consider to be substandard. Based on construction, materials, trigger and inherent accuracy.

Polymer striker fired guns with lousy triggers are cheap to make. Mark them up astronomically and people will still wait to buy them. Creates a cottage industry for aftermarket triggers and barrels to make them shoot like they should have out of the box as well.

Sig and Beretta still make metal framed DA/SA guns. I will buy from them. They still make good looking, well made handguns that I desire.

If there was one "gun guy" left at the current company calling itself S&W, the 3914 that they currently produce at their Houlton ME plant, for the NYPD, would be available for everyone to purchase.

But then, if it were, who would still line up to buy their "m&p" or panty shield?

 

[tipoc]

Orion8472,

It will take some looking to find a piece as slim as you'd like in 9mm. The older H&K P7 might have done but they are out of production and not da/sa.

You may have to compromise some on the width. Best to go to a gun show and as many shops as you can and hold the guns in your hand. Some guns measure wide but in practice are slimmer. Meaning that they are measured across their widest part while across the slide and grip area they are slimmer.

Take a look at the Bersa "Thunder Pro Ultra Compact". It's a da/sa piece, wider than you want, maybe, but worth a look.

Sig, H&K, Walther, S&W, etc. all make what you may be interested in.

Don't overlook used guns.

You may have to go through 2 or 3 guns over the years before you find the one that's "just right".

tipoc

 

[Sam1911]

Sig and Beretta still make metal framed DA/SA guns. I will buy from them. They still make good looking, well made handguns that I desire.

See, but it isn't neccessarily an issue of "substandard" or crappy or even "new generation" syndrome.

When I pick up an M&P or xD or even a Glock and shoot it in practical applications, it really works for me.

When I pick up a Sig or Beretta I instantly find myself thinking, "Wow, I'm glad we're not stuck with THIS any more!" Lots of negatives, few positives -- for my hands, and my style of shooting.

It's all a matter of taste and what works for you.

Or, in the broader sense, what works the "bestest for the mostest".