Why police officers use HP bullets?

[Rykkaru]

First, if this is not the place to ask this, please move/remove this thread. I made this thread by pure curiosity. From what I know, most police departments these days issue HP bullets (to decrease overpenetration). But I was thinking, isn't that a bad idea? I mean, if an officer (s) gets into a firefight against armed criminals, wouldn't overpenetration be a good thing for the officer (s)? In a firefight, chances are that everyone will be behind cover. FMJ rounds would be much better at penetrating the obstacles and incapacitating the criminals behind them, saving the officer ammo and maybe lives. What do you think?

 

[scaatylobo]

The purpose as I see [ I was LEO and firearms instr ] is to use the bullets energy in the body and by doing so,to stop the threat.

Police are not allowed to "shoot to kill" but we shoot to stop the threat.

The HP bullet will expend most of its energy in the body and therefore require less rounds to stop a threat.

And as mentioned a penetration will endanger bystanders.

Hope this helps,I am sure others will explain all that I posted = again.

 

[Michael R.]

i think they use hp bullets because when they shoot into a bad guy with a fmj, they dont kill the innocent bystander 100 yards away behind the victim. youd be surprised how much overpenetration the 9mm has. to go through obstacles is where they would use an ar-15 or shotgun.

 

[Deus Machina]

Not to any major extent. Hollowpoints just mash closed and work more or less like FMJ.

Plus, cover and concealment are exactly that. What would make an officer feel comfortable wasting rounds on cover, unaware of exactly where the intended target is behind it, and unable to see anything else that happens to be on the other side?

 

[Sam1911]

1) Police officers don't spend a lot of time in pitched "firefights" with armed criminals, taking cover and exchanging fire. That makes for good TV/movie scenes, but officers' sidearms are deployed most often in the same types of "3 yards, 3 shots, 3 seconds" settings as those of the armed citizen. When things devolve into folks taking cover and exchanging fire, the patrol rifles come out to play and/or SWAT marksmen take over.

2) There are more reasons for using JHPs than simply limiting over-penetration. That's a nice benefit, to whatever extent it might work, but the primary reason is to increase the wounding effect of the bullet so that someone being shot ceases doing whatever it is that's encouraging the officer to shoot him as quickly as possible.

3) FMJs don't behave a whole lot better through hard cover than do JHPs -- certainly not enough better to justify giving up the benefits of JHPs for the 90%+ of their normal encounters.

 

[Rykkaru]

1) Police officers don't spend a lot of time in pitched "firefights" with armed criminals, taking cover and exchanging fire. That makes for good TV/movie scenes, but officers' sidearms are deployed most often in the same types of "3 yards, 3 shots, 3 seconds" settings as those of the armed citizen. When things devolve into folks taking cover and exchanging fire, the patrol rifles come out to play and/or SWAT marksmen take over.

2) There are more reasons for using JHPs than simply limiting over-penetration. That's a nice benefit, to whatever extent it might work, but the primary reason is to increase the wounding effect of the bullet so that someone being shot ceases doing whatever it is that's encouraging the officer to shoot him as quickly as possible.

3) FMJs don't behave a whole lot better through hard cover than do JHPs -- certainly not enough better to justify giving up the benefits of JHPs for the 90%+ of their normal encounters.

Yes, I know that's not common for the regular police officer. Do they also use hollow point ammo on patrol rifles? Most police officers here carry .308 carbines (FAL) as their main weapon with 9mm/.40 pistols as sidearms.

 

[Sam1911]

Honestly you would need to find that out from the specific department you're thinking of to be sure.

There are some ammo manufacturers who market some of their products specifically to defensive and/or law-enforcement uses. Here's one: http://www.hornady.com/store/308-Win-155-gr-FPD/ Not FMJ.

 

[StrawHat]

As a RO for a medium sized dept, I was never concerned with overpenetration. I was more concerned with accuracy. In a firefight, statistics show that over 90% of the rounds miss the intended target.

 

[cane]

Yes, I know that's not common for the regular police officer. Do they also use hollow point ammo on patrol rifles? Most police officers here carry .308 carbines (FAL) as their main weapon with 9mm/.40 pistols as sidearms.

Where's "here"?

 

[Loosedhorse]

Simplest reason: they are required to.

NYPD was the LAST major PD to switch over to HPs. They had quite a time explaining that to the public, after years, no, decades of demonizing "dum-dum bullets." Of course, since they waited so long, by then they could use as one of their reasons:

'It is the standard around the world in law enforcement to use hollow points.

Other reasons given:

''They are much safer than fully jacketed bullets, which will go through a person or tumble through a person's organs and then continue on and hit innocent victims..."

[T]hey are more effective in stopping dangerous criminals, and they say that aspect further protects bystanders because officers have to fire fewer shots to incapacitate their targets...

'It increases the wound's capacity to the victim, but it reduces a risk that the police are always concerned about: the risk of the bullet perforating the intended target and injuring a bystander"...''On the one hand, it makes shootings safer in public settings. On the other hand, the impact on the victim is greater...''

''It should be able to save lives,'' he said of the switch. ''It should be able to reduce the amount of innocent bystanders who are shot.''

Mas Ayoob said it more succinctly: They're safer for you, safer for bystanders, and safer for the person being shot.

It was interesting that when Canada's RCMP swithced to HPs, they made the same argument. And then stated that such bullets should be illegal for private purchase, because armed self-defense is not the job of the private citizen.

 

[Rykkaru]

Yes, I know that's not common for the regular police officer. Do they also use hollow point ammo on patrol rifles? Most police officers here carry .308 carbines (FAL) as their main weapon with 9mm/.40 pistols as sidearms.

Where's "here"?

South America, Brazil, Rio de Janeiro

 

[Loosedhorse]

Do they also use hollow point ammo on patrol rifles?

I think there is much less publicly known about rifle ammo selection by PDs, whether for "patrol rifles," tactical entry or sniper rifles.

For patrol rifles, I suspect FMJ is the choice in semi-autos. The North Hollywood bank robbery was in large part responsible for the push toward patrol rifles, and in that case they were needed specifically to get through body armor and car body metal at distance. For tactical entry, likely HPs.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Most real life use of deadly force (including conversations with friends who are in law enforcement and local newspaper reports I have read) is exactly what Sam1911 posted: seldomn more than "3 yards, 3 shots, 3 seconds". For most deadly force situations, over-penetration is a bad idea; you don't want bullets going where you can't see. Situations like the Great North Hollywood Bank Robbery Shootout are exceptions that obscure the general rule in law enforcement.

Added: From plinking at an abandoned rock quarry, it has been my observation that hollowpoint bullets are less likely to ricochet (they break up and fragments don't go as far as a solid bullet). I imagine that that would also hold true in the "concrete canyons" of a city street. Less over-penetration, fewer ricochets with HPs.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

NYPD was the LAST major PD to switch over to HPs. They had quite a time explaining that to the public, after years, no, decades of demonizing "dum-dum bullets."

New York City (PD, news media, politicians, man-in-the-street, etc.) have a group psychosis of demonizing anything to do with guns to the point of not being able to formulate rational policies on police or civilian matters dealing with firearms. Back in the 1960s it amused me that the Tennessee hunting regs required "dum dum" bullets, while NYC people like Madison Avenue ad exec Carl Bakal were campaigning for a national ban on "dum dum" bullets.

 

[SSN Vet]

I think there is much less publicly known about rifle ammo selection by PDs, whether for "patrol rifles," tactical entry or sniper rifles.

trade secrets?

My state trooper BILs old sargeant (now retired) was also the tac team leader and carried three scoped rifles in his rig.... each with a different load for different application.

 

[Cosmoline]

From what I know, most police departments these days issue HP bullets (to decrease overpenetration)

That's just the justification used in big liberal cities. The real reason has always been to increase stopping power.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

Geez, does everything have to have a political slant.
Those durned libs are at it again, cmon man.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Because they are ordered to use issued ammo?

 

[Ben86]

The "firefights" between cops and criminals are mostly similar to the common SD situation. They are fast, up close and personal events that do not resemble the Hollywood movie shoot outs where both sides have cover.

The modern hp bullet is designed, and works very well, at both providing devastating terminal performance (much more so than FMJ) and still penetrating barriers adequately.

FMJ is good for one thing: cheap practice ammo

 

[Shawn Dodson]

See "FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" - http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

See "IWBA Handgun Ammunition Specification" - http://www.firearmstactical.com/iwba.htm

See "IWBA Handgun Ammunition Specification Supplement" - http://www.firearmstactical.com/iwba.htm#Specification Supplement[/b]

Mas Ayoob said it more succinctly: They're ...safer for the person being shot.

If this indeed Ayoob's current opinion then I disagree. However, I suspect his opinion has evolved.

 

[TXdefender]

Policy for my dept. is hollowpoints in handguns, hollowpoints or softpoint in patrol rifle (.223/5.56 only).

 

[HorseSoldier]

Hollow point ammunition is not issued to limit over penetration, it is issued to maximize damage and lethality. If an officer needs to use deadly force, the intent is to (in politically correct terms) "neutralize the threat" which means to kill or incapacitate the bad guy as rapidly as possible.

 

[Loosedhorse]

If this indeed Ayoob's current opinion then I disagree. However, I suspect his opinion has evolved.

Why? His argument seemed valid then; it seems valid today.

A quick search reveals he has said as much as recently as 2008.

 

[scaatylobo]

The pontifications of those here that have NO idea about shots fired or what it looks like and the effects are totally hysterical.

Instead of GUESSING and then actually voicing an 'opinion' that is totally INCORRECT.

Try reading the post that show you where to look,and listen to those that have been and done.

btw,I have no knowledge of any agency that issues fmj to any officer.

Either in handgun or long gun.

Bet there are special application rounds,but jeez people,get real please.

And yes,HP's do expand from a handgun = REALLY.

 

[Panzercat]

Most officers aren't going to fire through something they can't see through to maybe hit the target, maybe hit something else, and the times they would even think of having to do so are fairly rare.

North Hollywood was the exception, not the rule.